Safe Speed Forums

Done a bit of research and found that the CPS Charging standard provides for the pace car under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1998. I think a safespeed PR could Urge drivers to report the pace car driver to the police under sec 3 of the road traffic act and ask them to prosecute. The CPS have stated in the charging standard that drivers should be prosecuted for in this exampe. So there should be no excuses from the police..

summary below:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/chapter_b.html#17

The law

This offence is committed when a vehicle is driven on a road or other public place "as a result of which other persons using the road or place are inconvenienced." 'Other persons' may include persons in or on the driver's vehicle itself. The penalties are the same as for "Careless Driving".

Generally, prosecutors prefer 'Careless Driving"' to "Driving without due consideration" as the former is easier to prove - there is no need to show that an actual road user is inconvenienced, etc. But 'due consideration' is more appropriate where the real harm done is aimed at, or suffered by a particular person.

The accused must be proved:

* to have fallen below the standard of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver in the circumstances of the case; and
* to have done so without reasonable consideration for others; and
* to have inconvenienced an actual road user.

Note the essential difference between the two offences under Section 3 RTA 1988 is that in cases of careless driving the prosecution need not show that any other person was inconvenienced. In cases of inconsiderate driving, there must be evidence that some other user of the road or public place was actually inconvenienced.

This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness. There must, however, also be some inconvenience to other road users, for example, forcing other drivers to move over and/or brake as a consequence. Examples of conduct appropriate for a charge of driving without reasonable consideration are:

* flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way;
* misuse of any lane to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
* unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane;
* unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;
* driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers;
* driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed;
* driving a bus in such a way as to scare the passengers.

I could have several people a week just for driving at 40 on big wide nsl stretches. Might start taking their numbers

As a Truck driver, I could keep the Police very busy with the number of cars doing 55mph in lane 1 of a motorway, then as I go to overtake them, they speed up, so I drop back in behind them, and low and behold, they slow down again.
That is driving witout due consideration is it not.

And we now have the Highways agency vehicles that seem to like patrolling the motorways at 50mph, CAUSING CONGESTION, forcing trucks that want to maintain their 56mph to overtake and therefore inconviniencing all the car drivers wanting to do 70mph.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Don't forget the CPS will only bring a case when they believe there is a 70% of greater chance of securing a conviction.

It's difficult to prove that someone driving at less than the NSL is an inconvenience. At peak times when on stretches of open road, it's pointless batting along at the NSL (or more) when you know you are going to face a queue of traffic at the next roundabout.

By slowing down a bit the traffic flow is evened out and more cars queuing at the next roundabout are dispersed before you arrive. (Stationary traffic is not only bad for the environment, but it increases driver fatigue)

I'm not suggesting that someone doing 30 mph in a car, in a NSL for a significant length of time in good conditions should not be prosecuted (or perhaps more appropriately at least be spoken too) but each circumstance needs to be considered carefully.

As for pace cars, if that vehicle is travelling at or just below the speed limit in good conditions or at an appropriate speed in poorer conditions, I doubt the police would act and I further doubt that the CPS would bring a case. I don't think there is one.

Dratsabasti, have you thought about writing to the highways agency with your concerns?

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It's not what you ride... it's how you ride it.

As long as you drive as fast as it's safe to within the speed limit, does keeping to speed limits really count as "unnecessarily slow driving"?

But what ONE person deems 'a safe speed' can be painfully slow & inadequate. eg. doddery fool on NSL B road at dusk doing 40 on straight & 25 in bends, braking when he sees oncoming vehicles. - HE feels safe......but since when was that either 'safe' or 'driving with due consideration'?

Excuse me did you know I was behind you?



Not going here it will open the 'zip merging' debate again.



Shoudn't this be a hanging offence?


[/quote] unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;

Oh don't be rotten I want to have a go at that.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

True, but all they're requiring the pace cars to do is stick within the speed limit. I don't agree with the undue emphasis placed on speed, but at the end of the day, the law is the law, and sticking to speed limits does not count as "unnecessarily slow driving" (IMO).

70mph in L3 of a free flowing motorway would make an interesting test case.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Granted, that is extremely poor driving - but looking at the OP, I would think that counts as "unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane" than "unnecessarily slow driving"...

Is it anywhere in the pace car literature they're encouraging folk to do this? I wouldn't think so.

I still stand by my opinion though, that keeping to the limit on a single carriageway isn't driving unnecessarily slowly. Whether I think the limit's reasonable or not, it's there and I don't want a ticket. If, however, somone wants past in that circumstance, I usually pull over and let them - they can then intimidate someone else and I lower my own stress levels

I think the potential problems are more that those people who would volunteer for this scheme are more likely to be those won't be driving at the speed limit where it is safe to do so; they'll still be driving at 5-15 mph below the limit, particularly in NSL areas. That WOULD be driving unnecessarily slowly if it is safe and legal to be doing 60.

The campaign message quite clearly implies creating a moving road block to calm traffic.

link to doncaster.gov.uk

How will this help reduce casualties?

By driving within the speed limit you will be performing a mobile traffic calming role, keeping the overall speed of traffic following you at the speed limit. Lower speeds mean that in the event of a collision involving a vehicle and a pedestrian or cyclist, the severity of any injury sustained will be lessened. Lower vehicle speeds also mean that drivers are more able to stop in emergency situations.

this leaves no dobt in my mind.

Not to mention that reducing free flowing traffic speed will not reduce the sevirity of accidents or give drivers more time to stop, if they are all bunched up behind the idiot doing 25mph cos his speedos out the impact is llikely to be higher

scenario 1 - doing 35 with plenty of space up front - able to slow to a stop no problem as hazard seen early.

scenario 2 - nose to tail at 25, unable to reduce speed by more than 5mph = 20% of peds hit will still die.

Can anyone think of a single "traffic calming" measure which calms down traffic??

Maybe it's just me but I see every single traffic calming scheme as a damned obstacle course I have to put my suspension through. Is the car calm? No it's up and down gears chewing up petrol that would have got me another few miles ahead otherwise....
Am I calm? No, I'm having to come to a near halt from my carefully judged cruise to negotiate some obstacle, with clutching and gears and wasted fuel.

Would moving road block calm traffic down? I can say with complete certainty - No.

People will be overtaking on grass verges if they have to. Undertaking, you name it. For goodness sake it would be like being in a Nascar race with people trying to squeeze past. Sounds like a recipe for carnage to me.

Another stupid scheme dreamt up by a total numbskull with absolutely no understanding of the problem, physics (and flow rates in particular) and human nature.

Scenario 3 is a 30 vehicle pile up caused by 29 irate drivers on the verge of having a stroke due to frustration.

Doesn't this constitute a sort of mobile kidnap? What if you have mitigating circumstances? Such as beloved husband/wife slumped in passenger seat turning grey with a suspected heart attack and some weener wont let you past. What about emergency vehicles? How long will it take them to fight their way through a 1000 car queue following some prick who wont move out of the way?

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I think a couple of accidents happend on the m4 protest - which would be a good example of the pace car concept and associated problems

Not so long ago, in the days of live police trafpols , it wasn't uncommon to read of people being stopped ( at the very least ) for driving too slow.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Have e-mailed both Chesire and Doncaster with regards the pace car schemes and the insurance implications given that most policies have specific exclusions for the following: Hire & Reward, Motorsports, Pace Setting, Pace Making and Pace Car Duties.

Have yet to get a reply they are staying very quiet.

I wonder why ???

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

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