Safe Speed Forums

I've mentioned this before in passing I think but thought it might be worth some discussion.

My daily commute is along the A251 between Ashford & Faversham. Its a deceptively tricky road to drive IMO with micro climates, adverse camber here and there, some deceptive bends and lots of dozy, switched off commuter, over-confident & familiar, auto pilot style driving. Its also busy and narrow with trees lining the road overhanging a bit. Very few straights for safe overtaking which causes impatience amongst some. Its worth mentioning that there is a local newspaper campaign to impose lower speed limits and more enforcement fuelled by well meaning but poorly infomed villager bile.

HGVs use the road to shortcut between Ashford and the M2. But I've noticed how traffic can come to a sudden stop as 2 HGVs slow to a crawl to get past each other -rear end shunt risk for dopey/tailgating drivers. Maybe more worrying than this, is the corner cutting around right hand bends, sometimes 3 feet over into the other lane. I'm sure I'll witness an accident where an oncoming car/van will suffer some kind of collision in this way, although I appreciate that fault lies with the oncoming traffic to some extent.

I know that the HGV drivers here will point out that poor accomodation by the other traffic causes the greater risk. However, it may also be fair to say that if you spend a significant amount of time with your offside wheels over the middle line, you should consider whether the road is appropriate for your vehicle?

Discuss...

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"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

I think you have to consider this type of issue on several levels.

How much time / milage / hassle is saved by taking the shortcut? You can't blame HGV drivers for wanting to take the shortest or fastest route to their destination, especially if it avoids congension / road works or whateverm dispite the fact that the route may be more "challenging". The main route from Swindon to Salisbury (also the shortest route to Poole) is an awful road, very narrow, poorly maintained and realistically not suited to HGV traffic. However the alternative is either unfeasable or non-existant.

How much of the problem is genuinely caused by the HGVs? I appreciate that you said that the road is so narrow in places that it is extremely difficult for two HGVs to pass, but how much of the road is that narrow? I would suggest that the presence of an HGV causes no greater risk than a tractor / cyclist / horse on the same stretch. If other motorists are getting frustrated / not concentrating properly then you can hardly blame this on the precence of an HGV on the road.

If the road were genuinely unsuitable for HGVs then it should be signed as such, I'm not denying that, so maybe some of the problem lies with the HA / LA. If its a major route then it should be wide enough and properly maintained. Your point about being too wide to fit into a lane is very valid but then I see plenty of drivers out there who aren't capable of keeping a 6' wide car in a lane....

Thinking on a different tack, if the local villagers are campaigning for lower speed limits then the presence of the odd HGV is surely a good thing as in effect it makes the whole road a 40 limit....

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I agree with Sixy.

I think also, removing hazards from roads like this one serves to make them more dangerous for road users that are more vulnerable.

All sorts of traffict are entitle to use our roads. Drivers just need to make more time for their journeys to compensate.

Sam,

You have identified particular hazards on this road. Now that you are aware of them, you keep a discernable eye out for them no doubt and adjust your driving accordingly.

Remove those hazards and people drive faster and get more impatient when something else slows them down. When they do see a different hazard they are not geared up to deal with it appropriately.

I think our roads need to have a certain element of danger about them in order to ensure drivers remain focused.

I think driving is so easy now what with ABS, electronic brake assistance, cars lull people into a real false sense of security making them oblivious to the forces involved. When you drive an old car and realise how hard and fast you have to hit the brake pedal in order to stop it quickly you soon learn to work really hard to anticipate things.

Lets not let all our roads get 'sanitized' like our cars.

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It's not what you ride... it's how you ride it.

it is probably the case that the LGV's on that road are delivering to or collecting from premises along that road, why else would they be there? They are probably the odd fuel tanker, livestock transporters (cow taxi's), milk tankers, grain bulkers, timber etc. but not many car transporters for example

As an LGV Driver, I hate these small roads with a passion.
For instance, saturday last I was delivering seed potatoes to a farm at Wighton, between Wells next the Sea and Little Walsingham.
Truly dreadful single track roads with passing places, but I had NO choice in the matter, it was the only way in, which ever direction I approached from, there were these tiny lanes.
I could have come up from Fakenham, but I had been forewarned that road was closed for repairs, so I was directed to go through North Creake and turn right.
If I had met another truck, we would have been goosed.
I could have approached from the north via Wells, but that would have put a good number of miles on my journey, and a lot of time, that I didn't have, as it was, I eventually got home late o'clock in the evening, fortunately I had been able to pick my kids up on the way back to the yard, that saved an even longer driving day.

Honestly, most sensible Truck Driver don't like using these small roads, some do to save a couple of seconds and a yard or two, and as previously said, if the road is not suitable for use by LGVs, wheres the signs.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

i can confirm this and use today as an example. edinburgh - gleneagles in a truck. they gave me a ticket to cross the forth road bridge but i looked at the route at the other side and decided to use the M9/A9 instead. less congestion and wider, faster road. i dont know the roads round this area as i have recently moved back after 11 years down south but i will avoid lanes if possible. if only A roads were reliably wide enough

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

I agree that LGVs have a right to use all roads but would like to see a bit more signage around or perhaps restrictions on certain loads at certain times of day.

For example, there is a rural road close to where I work (Hawksworth Lane, Guiseley, Leeds should anyone happen to know it) that is very narrow and requires care to pass at the quietest of times. If there are parked cars on one side, then often it requires one side of the traffic to wait for oncoming traffic, and esp with the school that it passes it cannot be driven at any more than 15-20 mph (it's a 30mph BTW) and is often jammed.
A couple of weeks ago, at 15:30 - just as the school was kicking out and the road was at its busiest, a very wide slow moving vehicle carrying bales of hay decided to head down it. It would have struggled had the road been empty. But at school leaving time the result was complete gridlock. I do wonder what the dire emergency was that required hay to be transported through that road at that exact point in time - believe me, the driver could not have picked a worse time. However, in retrospect now that I think about it, the road may not be signposted as to its suitability (I'll have to check that), so any LGV driver unfamiliar with the area would not be aware of the chaos they were about to cause.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Don't forget that it's often not the driver who makes the decision when to go. Also, half an hour or so's delay may seem insignificant to you, but it can mean the difference between getting home that night or not. Even 10 minutes can make that difference! I know that road (I'm from Otley) and I must admit I wouldn't care to take an HGV down there at any time, but sometimes we just don't have a choice.

and other times we just dont know. the satnav is becoming more and more popular but i will not use it. it does take us down roads that are unsuitable due to width, height restrictions, the road is now a dead end etc etc etc. we have no idea until we are literally THERE. personally, i prefer maps but even they have the same problems sometimes although i will mark them up as i go along to avoid making the same mistakes

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Scanny - possibly why the job of "LORRY DRIVER" had so much of a ring of professionalism to it - in days gone past - get lost - ask a truck driver , then ask a copper ( nowadays can you find one ) .

Now they all depend on Sat nav - the Brit ones - yesterday had a polish bloke with an address on a bit of paper - sent him in the right direction with advice to ask nearer - brit driver -could have sent him to the door -no racial bias - he didn't speak english ( least not my sort)


Now ,SORRY - HGV driver ---wheel minder , i give them a wide berth as their skills have to be seen to be proved.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

unfortunately, these days, looking at the plates does not tell you a thing about the driver. i personally do not agree with all this cheap foreign labour coming over here and lowering the pay rates but that is a different issue that i wont go into to avoid a controversial problem.

i cant make excuses for anyones behaviour so i wont attempt it. all i will say is that there are good and bad drivers out there. if you are lucky, you will come across a good one but a lot of them are leaving the trade in search of a higher wage and some respect. both of which are in decline for us

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Nice thoughts and comments. As an Hgv driver that lives in the area and uses that road on a regular basis let me enlighten you. The road originally used is the A251 between Ashford - Faversham. In faversham there is the Shepherd Neame brewery which obviously runs its on HGV's and plenty of others delivering and picking up.

Now there is really only to ways around this. Rather than use the A251 you have 2 options. Take the M20/A20 To Dover then up the A2 adding about 1 - 1 1/2 hours to your journey, loads of mileage and extra fuel costs.
The other is too go up the M20 to maidstone, A249 to sittingbourne and then back down the M2 to faversham. Again totally unpractical. So basically it is the only choice you have irrespective of Sat Navs (which i dont use because there is not 1 suitable for hgv's that list low bridges etc).

All that said cause i admit that road does get tight in places there is one other reason which is a main reason for so many hgv's to be using that road.
The highways agency in Kent do a little leaflet which is basically a map which shows which roads are suitable for lorries and the A251 is one of the designated lorry routes. Hope this answers your query about the A251.

On a general note you are seeing alot more lorries on narrow roads due to locations that we are having to deliver too. There are a lot of farmers who cant make money out of farming turning their farms into industrial units. They need deliveries so there we go. Either that or they are putting retail units or other new developements in areas where there used to be nothing but fields and not doing anything about the road infrastructure to enable the access for the vehicles that are obviously going to have to deliver there. All this leads to lorries being where you would not have seen them in the past and if they had a choice probably wouldnt want to be either.