Safe Speed Forums

Having just received a NIP it has been brought home to me that I have absolutely no defence against it (apart from lying, cheating, or technical faults) even if I sincerely believe the NIP is wrong.

So, how can I defend myself in the future.

The only way I can think of is to constantly record my speed, position, and time. Does such a device exist (at a reasonable price of course). Of course doing that could lay me open to prosecution as well.

Is there any other way to defend myself. Note that always staying below the speed limit or using cruise control is not an answer.

BobM

Some cars' engine management or ABS computers record the last "x" minutes of speed (and other variables) but you can't get at them to interrogate them easily.

I don't know how much a tachograph would cost but that might be the only other way - and even then it would have to be sealed and calibrated.

Bob,

Keep the faith mate.

I'll PM you tomorrow morning.....................

Salvation may be at hand...............

Simon

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Safe yet Swift.

AIUI, most sat-nav systems can do this to some extent. However, you have to configure it to perform the logging and you might need to download the log to your computer after each trip to avoid losing the data.

BTW, I heard tale of someone who had sat-nav evidence to show that his car was stationary some miles from the camera site at the time of the alleged offence and that when he did travel past that site, his speed was within the limit. However, I never did find out if the courts found in his favour.

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Will

As mentioned, some GPS systems can log where you go. (mine calls it a track and because it's designed for walking it creates tracks all the time)

If you have a reasonably modern vehicle with an OBD-II connector on then it would be possible to get a device to log the date/time and the speed/revs/whatever so it would have a log of exactally what you saw on your dashboard at the time. I don't think these devices exist yet though. (except maybe computer based ones)
Some cars log this themselves so it can be accessed in the case of an accident but I think they only log the last few seconds. You can probably get this data out of the car with an OBD-II cable.

Of course none of this is as legally recognisable as a tachograph.

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Andrew.

True - but if you do keep record via GPS doo-dah as suggested - und also request the photos at same time - und all evidence lend substance to belief of unsound ping ... then possible to cast reasoned doubt maybe.

Also M4 Wales fiasco of 2003 prove necessary to at least look at site of alleged ping.

Lot of drivers around who still not aware that the Gatso which pinged them at 70 mph was in the 70 mph zone by error. They recalled the roadworks und assumed they had been in wrong.. or hasty in acceleration to NSL lolly at the the time

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There are 2 major problems with tahcographs. 1 the analogue heads are huge and too big to fit to most cars. 2 recently the EU have introdiced digital tachos so you can't get an analogue one anyway. The digital system would be prohibitively expensive to fit to a car. Also I doubt that you would be able to find somewhere willing to callibrate / certify it which would render it useless.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

And were there not some cases where the Tacho evidence was disregarded by the Courts as speed detection equipment is fully approved, and therefore cannot be wrong.

Yeah, I think you're right. Even though the tacho is ministry aproved and recognised as the standard form of recording speed/time... bonkers.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

a basic handheld GPS for under £100 would be sufficient for what you need... if not the most integrated option.

throw it on the dash at the beginning of each journey.. download it to the PC at the end of every day (or week depending on the memory).


GPS tracks could of course be easily falsified but if its some evidence in your favour it can only help your arguement.

might want to consider something that logs the GPS status (no. of sats & estimated accuracy) at each trackpoint too to give yourself a better case when the GPS accuracy is questioned.

Anton should be able to give us an update - I believe the case is still ongoing. The vehicle had GPS tracking and a digital tacho and a tacho expert will be in court, along with the laser expert etc.

Gps and tacho evidence can be excellent but you need to make sure it is 100% set on the correct time. And the tacho clock corresponds with the 3 time traces on the tacho disk. You also need the gps to report its location and speed very frequently. i.e. every 30 seconds or even constantly and the peak spoeed every 30 seconds.

The police speed camera also has a time. The video recorder has a separate clock. Both should be correct. The speed camera should be correct but may not be! Coppers will swear black is white that they check the time before and after a detection session. Maybe they check the wrong clock?

The Gps gets the time from the 24 satellites whizzing round the earth.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

tachos arent a safe bet anyway. i just read today about a driver who was alleged to have driven at over 30 past a scamera in a 30 limit. his tacho showed that he had not gone over 28 at that time but the court still convicted him plus chucked in £300 for costs and he had another £450 to pay to his lawyer. tachos are recognised for prosecution but in defence, it appears to be down to the decision of the court at the time of hearing

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

I have done some recent research for railway-related GPS positioning. The data you get from GPS is as follows:-

1. Position (Latitude/Longitude) to accuracy of 10 metre circle guaranteed

then the following can be derived from positions:-

2. Heading (compass heading of the GPS receiver if moving in degrees/minutes from North)
3. Velocity (given in knots, I think; nautical miles/hour)

And if 4 satellites are in view: -

4. Height above sea level

Any bog-standard GPS receiver should acheive 60 position readings a minute, some are capable of more.

Only problem is does the in-car kit calculate velocity and record all positions of the journey. If it does you have a pretty accurate record of your journey and speeds at each point along it. So if you're scared of being caught by the SCPs then always record your journey, as it will be vital evidence if you are falsely accused.

Or on the other hand, confirm the correctness of the NIP you have received !! As far as I know, nobody has yet used GPS evidence against an SCP speed device; it will be interesting to see the arguments in court.

If you want to look further search on 'GPS Positioning' on the Internet, its all in there.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

There is also a problem with continuity of evidence. you would have to prove that the gps record was you in your car traveling from site A to site B.
Scanny is correct. the court will believe that pigs are green before they will believe a calibrated tacho is more accurate than a callibrated speed camera.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Ask for a copy of the evidence, either photo or video, under the data protection act.

Go to the Information Commissioners Office website for details and phone them up for advice.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/eventual.aspx
Helpline
telephone: 01625 545 745
fax: 01625 524 510
email: mail@ico.gsi.gov.uk

I had my claim for this upheld by the ICO, so the police now have to give it to you if you ask for it, so that you can then check the evidence to check the validity of speeding allegation and if it complies with the code of practice, such as having a continuous view of your vehicle between the speed reading and identifying your vehicle registration.

If the police claim exemption from Data Protection Act then report back and I will clarify further.

You must have accepted that you were the driver, otherwise it is not then classed as personal information, so is not then covered by the Data Protection Act.

I intend to give a more complete explanation of my case shortly in a posting. It is currently being prepared.

I believe you can also ask for the evidence under the Freedom of Information Act, so as to get legal advice from a solicitor. Anton may have further information on that

You need to do this as soon as possible so as to get the information before expiry of the fixed penaly offer, when you then decide whether to go to court, or pay the fixed fine.

Scanny77

Can you please clarify where you read about the Tacho evidence not being accepted.

I understood the police had been using tacho evidence to convict drivers, so accepting it was valid evidence.

I think the road haulage people would be very interested in your comment

Have mentioned this before , re calibration .
Just a 2d worth.
In any industry which relies on the integrity of the calibration process ,a calibration cert is issued.On that cert should be a record of the serial no's and calibration details of the equipment used and this process repeated to be able to trace the reliability of the calibration back to the master. Is this required for the timing source on say Gatso's and in fact is it followed and something that could be requested??

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

one of the trade magazines. Truck & Driver, May issue (out now). letters section, page 65, headed Tacho Tussle
this guy was driving in a built up area (400 yards from his home) and was flashed by a mobile camera van. a summons came through with the usual 3 points/60 quid but it claimed he was travelling at 36MPH. he checked it and a friend from VOSA confirmed he was travelling at 28MPH. he challenged it, the tacho was sent away to a road traffic investigation unit in manchester. the report stated that he had not travelled more than 25MPH.
he also found info on the camera which stated that this particular type (LTi-20.20) had been banned in the USA due to inaccuracies.
the end result was 3 points, £60 fine, £300 costs and £650 for his solicitor

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

It wasn't this one was it?

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... ight=tacho

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.