Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Sun Nov 09, 2025 08:45

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 13:10 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire
In a recent thread it was suggested that, if the majority of people were doing something, then it should by default be considered legal. Indeed of the fundamental observations of the SS argument is that speeding is practiced by the majority of drivers, therefore we should accept that it is right/legal/justifiable or whatever. The concept is enshrined within the speed limit guidelines of the Arizona Department of Transportation: "The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable individual should be considered legal."

So I ask, as a discussion point, how much water does this hold?

As a logical fallacy:
The ‘everybody does it’ argument is known as Appeal to Widespread Belief (Bandwagon Argument, Peer Pressure, Appeal to Common Practice). It seems reasonable, but for example, in the 1800's there was a widespread belief that bloodletting cured sickness. All of these people were not just wrong, but horribly wrong, because in fact it made people sicker. Clearly, the popularity of an idea is no guarantee that it's right, but equally the observation of fallacious logic doesn’t prove it to be wrong either.

As recognition of the responsible nature of those concerned:
The argument here is quite simple; all of those normal, rational people cannot be wrong, but why not?
1. Speeding was not once as common place as it is today, drive a 1970s Austin Allegrot (sic) at 70 mph and you knew you were doing 70, anything that rolls off today’s production lines can easily achieve 90mph+ and offers little feedback to the driver. Thus, people now speed because its so easy to, does that mean its right?
2. Why should someone’s occupation or social status be a metric of their ability to drive safely? Driving is a skill very much located in the attitudinal and psychomotor domains of human skills, perhaps unlike most other skills people deploy during their everyday work. Indeed, we could argue that the very people whose motivation is to push their way to the top of their profession perhaps possess quite undesirable attitudes (arrogance, aggression, over-confidence) when it comes to road safety?

By way of comparison with other behaviours with legal implications.
There is very little other activity that can hold a candle to ‘speeding’ when it comes to mass-lawbreaking. Littering, perhaps, comes close if one looks at our streets and waysides; if left to our own devices what would our towns and highways look like I wonder.
On the roads, motorways in particular, tailgating is also quite commonplace and is practiced en-masse (whether people recognise it or not). We know that tailgating is the number one irritant amongst drivers, so why do we assert that speeding is being done responsibly when tailgating is not?
Drink-driving was once quite widespread until the law intervened, not its socially unacceptable.

By comparison to other behaviours
We’re going a bit off the track here, but what about other areas of human activity? Smoking is quite widespread but very few people these days actually deny the links between smoking and a range of illnesses and diseases. Over-eating, lack of exercise, excessive debt and many other issues illustrate just how irresponsible ‘responsible’ people can be at times. So why is speeding any different?

By comparison with the past.

Search the web and you can find a number of examples where the majority would be deemed to be wrong. Slavery for example was once quite widely practiced and there are plenty of other examples of subjugation of minorities by majorities. Of course, it can be readily seen that such behaviour might not, by today’s standards at least, be deemed ‘reasonable’.


Note to potential respondents:

Please recognise the difference between the use of the above examples as examples aloneand not as matters to be discussed in their own right. The minutae of each is not relevant although their applicability is, there's a subtle difference.

If your gut reaction is to simply say ‘ of course it should be legal to speed if everyone does’ then please don’t reply. Anyone can say that, I want to know why.

OK, as our rifle range instructors would say, at your target in front carry on! :bunker:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 13:52 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
"The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable individual should be considered legal."

In the other thread referred to it was asked if anyone could think of any activity other than exceeding the speed limit where this is not the case.

What is acceptable behaviour can only be viewed in the context of the social mores of the day and not with hindsight. Hence slavery, while not acceptable now, was OK at one time and was not illegal then. Unlike exceeding the speed limit, smoking is not illegal - just discouraged. If smoking were analogous to speeding there would be a law that allowed smoking up to 30 cigarettes per day. Anything over that would be illegal and be policed by CCTV cameras. :)

In the USA, prohibition sought to stop the mass of the population partaking in an activity which was incredibly widespread and thus the law was circumvented and fell into disrepute. This is why the statement at the top of this post must be upheld - maintenance of respect for the law.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 14:18 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
The main Safe Speed argument is one that you missed.

Despite the fact that speeding is extremely widespread, relatively few crashes involve 'speeding' so it is impossibile for speeding in itself to be dangerous.

And of course, by implication, if we focus resources on something that ISN'T a safety issue, things that ARE safety issues ae denied the benefit of those resources.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 14:32 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 00:24
Posts: 2400
Location: Kendal, Cumbria
There is also a fundamental difference in principal.

We are not saying "speeding is safe because it is popular". That would be a false conclusion, like saying that The Sun is the best newspaper because it sells most.

Our reasoning for saying that speeding isn't the major safety issue it is held up to be is rooted not in popularity but in scientific analysis and reasoning.

The only conclusion we are drawing from the evidence of majority speeding is that in a democracy that is the moral basis upon which laws should be formed and / or enforced. Ultimately laws are about imposing moral standards, and moral standards are inherently a majority thing.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 14:34 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 15:05
Posts: 1225
Location: Glasgow
Exactly. Current policy presupposes that speeding is dangerous and is the cause of a large proportion of accidents.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 14:37 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire
SafeSpeed wrote:
The main Safe Speed argument is one that you missed.

Despite the fact that speeding is extremely widespread, relatively few crashes involve 'speeding' so it is impossibile for speeding in itself to be dangerous.


Actually, I didn't miss anything whilst at the same time missing a whole host of things. :wink:
I never asked if it was dangerous or not, thats not actually the point. I'm simply asking, in the wider social context if you like, if its right merely because 'everybody does it'.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 14:59 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
If you were starting out to create laws in a society, you would naturally look at which activities were general and widespread and assume they should be considered legal.

The application of the quotation from the Arizona DoT is actually quite limited - it does not per se justify speeding, it simply says that those setting speed limits should take into account what is "normal responsible" behaviour, for example by adopting the 85th %ile rule.

I can't honestly think of anything else outside the sphere of road traffic law where the ordinary citizen is so constantly bumping up against or exceeding what is legal.

Also it's important to draw a distinction between what is commonplace and what is done by most people. Many people have underage sex. Most don't.

It would also be interesting to find any example in modern history of something being outlawed by government that most people did. And I don't think either drink-driving (as defined by the 1967 breathalyser law) or smoking in pubs come into that category.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 15:17 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 20:28
Posts: 1267
Location: not too far in front, not too far behind.
PeterE wrote:
It would also be interesting to find any example in modern history of something being outlawed by government that most people did. And I don't think either drink-driving (as defined by the 1967 breathalyser law) or smoking in pubs come into that category.


at the time the law was set, surely, most people didn't (or couldn't) speed? Private car ownership was a lot lower, cars were lower powered in general, more pedestrians were about.

I'm only a mere 37 so I'm surmising based on watching old episodes of "All Creatures Great and Small".

So the government of the time DIDN'T outlaw something most people did, instead 'most' people have started to push the envelope of the law. Speed cameras are a reaction to that. if you want a corollary to that, perhaps MOST people used to respect police officers, now it is common to give them no respect (q.v. posts by someone else on here who's name escapes me now ... had his wedding attended by coppers). In fact respect is a good one to use, respect used to be something more common than it is now, as a kid I could be told off by ANY adult but now it's more likely that telling off, or even warning off, little billy who's about to cut his hand open on the broken glass from a car window as he leans in to rob the mobile phone is likely to earn you a kicking from Big Billy? People have changed where the law hasn't ... respect for the law is also in decline?

RP - cracking post, gave me a lot of cause for thought.

_________________
COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 15:26 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
handy wrote:
PeterE wrote:
It would also be interesting to find any example in modern history of something being outlawed by government that most people did. And I don't think either drink-driving (as defined by the 1967 breathalyser law) or smoking in pubs come into that category.

at the time the law was set, surely, most people didn't (or couldn't) speed? Private car ownership was a lot lower, cars were lower powered in general, more pedestrians were about.

I'm only a mere 37 so I'm surmising based on watching old episodes of "All Creatures Great and Small".

So the government of the time DIDN'T outlaw something most people did, instead 'most' people have started to push the envelope of the law. Speed cameras are a reaction to that.

Even in 1935, virtually all cars could comfortably exceed the 30 mph speed limit, although perhaps in the much smaller urban areas of that time they seldom did.

And arguably in 1965 the 70 mph limit was at or above the 85th percentile on all roads it applied to.

But urban speeding was at least as commonplace in the mid-70s as it is now - I remember doing driving lessons in the mid-70s and being constantly urged to "keep to 30" as if it was something unusual. I don't see that there has been some kind of upsurge in speeding that has had to be addressed by cameras.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 15:27 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire
handy wrote:
So the government of the time DIDN'T outlaw something most people did, instead 'most' people have started to push the envelope of the law.


Ya beat me to it :D

Quite right, as i said, speeding (on motorways at least) was never as widespread in the 60s/70s as it is now becuase the vehicles lacked the capacity to sustain 70mph.
Even in the 80s, on my Suzuki Katana, at 90mph I would have been easily the amongst the fastest vehicles on any one stretch of road at the time, now you would be just about keeping ahead of the flow and holding up others.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 16:22 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
handy wrote:
So the government of the time DIDN'T outlaw something most people did, instead 'most' people have started to push the envelope of the law.


But the Government of today (or that of any in the intervening period) have not adapted the limits to ensure that the original intent of not criminalising the actions of vast numbers of people was preserved. The "pushing of the envelope" is purely as a result of their inaction. If the 85th percentile logic had been updated with the march of time then we would not have the lunatic situation we have now.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 16:35 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The main Safe Speed argument is one that you missed.

Despite the fact that speeding is extremely widespread, relatively few crashes involve 'speeding' so it is impossibile for speeding in itself to be dangerous.


Actually, I didn't miss anything whilst at the same time missing a whole host of things. :wink:
I never asked if it was dangerous or not, thats not actually the point. I'm simply asking, in the wider social context if you like, if its right merely because 'everybody does it'.


OK. I don't believe it's right 'because everyone does it'. But I do believe 'it's right because everyone does it safely'.

[where:

* 'everyone' means the vast majority of responsible people and
* the purpose of the law is to promote safe behaviour ]

I reckon my construction makes your construction redundant in this context. Your contruction does have a certain academic interest, and I agree that it's difficult to answer. Fortunately, I don't believe we need to answer it.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 17:17 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire
SafeSpeed wrote:
OK. I don't believe it's right 'because everyone does it'. But I do believe 'it's right because everyone does it safely'.

[where:

* 'everyone' means the vast majority of responsible people and
* the purpose of the law is to promote safe behaviour ]

I reckon my construction makes your construction redundant in this context. Your contruction does have a certain academic interest, and I agree that it's difficult to answer. Fortunately, I don't believe we need to answer it.


Nothing, and I mean nothing, we do occurs in a complete vacuum and I firmly believe that is wrong to consider important issues such as speeding as if they do. Life is a rich tapestry into which all of our behaviours are interwoven and, at the risk of invoking the 'slippery slope' fallacy, is it not possible that one small issue might lead to another due, as Handy infers, due to a loss of respect.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 17:25 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Rigpig wrote:
Nothing, and I mean nothing, we do occurs in a complete vacuum and I firmly believe that is wrong to consider important issues such as speeding as if they do.


Au contraire!

The purpose of morality - and your question - is entirely designed to determine right from wrong in an idealised 'vacuum'.

So that's your vacuum, and I've moved outside it to bring in the critical real world behaviours. I accept the interest in your idealised question - but point out that we have no need to resolve it because the real world is available to determine the practical result.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 18:27 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
handy wrote:
at the time the law was set, surely, most people didn't (or couldn't) speed? Private car ownership was a lot lower, cars were lower powered in general, more pedestrians were about.

I'm only a mere 37 so I'm surmising based on watching old episodes of "All Creatures Great and Small".

So the government of the time DIDN'T outlaw something most people did, instead 'most' people have started to push the envelope of the law. Speed cameras are a reaction to that.


er, then why have they reduced the limits on so many previously NSL roads to 50, 40 or even 30?. That's not pushing the envelope, it's more of a case of making the envelope smaller.

But back to the main point. I believe that if the law - for whatever reason - criminalises the actions of the majority, then the law ought to be changed. Unless there's a good reason for keeping it as it is.
And they've already started realising, in some other countries, that there is a good reason for such change. In Norway, a few years back they increased some motorway limits from a ridiculous 80km/h to a slightly better but still ridiculous 90km/h. The casualty rate dropped. In Italy they increased the motorway limit to 150km/h. Same result. Now they're increasing the motorway limit in some parts of Austria to 160km/h.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 18:32 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
Rigpig wrote:
There is very little other activity that can hold a candle to ‘speeding’ when it comes to mass-lawbreaking.


That should be telling you something about the 'real' boundary between criminal and non-criminal behaviour.

I repost below the text of thread I posted a year or so ago.

Quote:
Neither I nor, I believe, most sensible drivers object to speed limits (we may grumble about limits which seem to have no justifiable road safety purpose); or, within reasonable limits, speed cameras and other methods of speed enforcement. The problem I have, and I think most ordinary drivers would share, if they addressed their mind specifically to the point, is the SCALE of the enforcement activity combined with the indiscriminate nature of the enforcement systems that are now in widespread use.

It only takes a moment's thought to realise that speed limits are not, never have been and never will be anything but a guide to safe speed. In absolute terms, it is reasonable to estimate that millions of speeding offences occur every single day (counting every discrete occasion on which any vehicle, anywhere, exceeds a posted speed limit), but only a vanishingly small percentage of them result in actual harm. If "speed kills" (meaning speed above a posted limit), we would be measuring fatalities in the hundreds of thousands or millions per annum.

Speeding is an absolute offence and it is understandable that it must be so, because enforcement would be almost impossible if it were not. Therefore (unless one takes the view that a crime is a crime only if the offence is detected), there are millions of criminal speeders (reportedly 99% of the driving population) whose culpability in law depends on no more than luck and/or their ability to avoid detection. If it was possible to detect all incidences of 'speeding' and enforce the law accordingly, it is clear that very few drivers would retain their licences for more than a few weeks or even days. If speeding really represents the danger to public safety that the 'speed kills' lobby would have us believe, that would be a desirable outcome. In fact, that would be an absurd result which would be hugely damaging to the country as a whole. (This is not the case with other crimes; for example, if it was possible to detect all incidences of burglary or theft and enforce accordingly, that WOULD be in the public good.) So, in establishing and maintaining this system of law, it must follow that the state (consciously or sub-consciously) acknowledges that it is NOT the legal definition of the offence itself, but the scope and scale of activity employed to detect offences and punish offenders, that defines the real boundary between criminal and non-criminal behaviour. Put another way, it is not exceeding the speed limit which represents the crime but whether the speed limit is exceeded so frequently or flagrantly or unsafely that, at a given level of detectablility of the offences and enforceability of the law, the offender is detected and prosecuted. Therefore, speeding is a "technical" offence.

Hitherto (before widespread use of automated speed detection), a (hypothetical) reasonable careful and reasonably competent driver, who exceeded the speed limit from time to time where the conditions were safe to do so, may well have avoided detection for speeding during an entire driving career without causing harm or alarm to anybody; although, on simple application of law, he would have been guilty of numerous criminal offences. The reason he would have escaped detection and conviction is that the narrow legal definition of the technical offence was balanced by the limitations of the previously existing detection and enforcement mechanisms so that, give or take a bit, the level of detection and punishment of offenders was proportionate to the harm which the offence actually caused. The introduction of systems which, on a previously unimagined scale, are able to detect the 'technical' offences, together with corresponding law enforcement systems, has destroyed that balance and re-defined the boundary between criminal and non-criminal behaviour.

In the binary world of speed enforcement, there can be no distinction between those people who exceed a speed limit and are detected, prosecuted and convicted, and those (reducing in number) who exceed a speed limit and are not caught. Each is equally culpable. Speaking in the House of Commons on 8.12.2003, Caroline Flint, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department said: "There is no doubt that speeding is a serious criminal offence". Therefore (if the reported figures are correct and, from observation, I do not think it a wild exaggeration), 99% of drivers are serious criminals. This is complete nonsense. The competent and careful actions of a majority of responsible people should obviously be considered legal. But, according to law, they are not. If, as acknowledged earlier, it is necessary to retain the existing legal definition of a speeding offence in order to preserve a reasonable degree of enforceability, it becomes clear that the pre-existing boundary between criminal and non-criminal behaviour must be restored by removing speed cameras altogether (or drastically reducing their number) or by some other adjustment to the detection and enforcement mechanisms.

The state has re-drawn the boundary of criminal behaviour and seeks to turn a majority of its citzens into serious criminals. That is a bizarre but unavoidable conclusion. We, the public, must turn back the tide. That could be achieved if a sufficiently large number of enforcement targets do no more than require the state to meet the ordinary standards of procedure and evidence which apply in all criminal cases.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 18:40 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
Pete317 wrote:
But back to the main point. I believe that if the law - for whatever reason - criminalises the actions of the majority, then the law ought to be changed.


That argument is addressed in my post above. There is no need to change the law if it is recognised that the scope of the law is defined by the scope and scale of detection and enforcement activity. I'm absolutely convinced that it is necessary to adopt this perspective in order to make sense of the conflict Rigpig described.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 18:43 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
Observer,

Excellent post. I had forgotten the previous discussions about this subject.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 18:56 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire
SafeSpeed wrote:
The purpose of morality - and your question - is entirely designed to determine right from wrong in an idealised 'vacuum'.


Morality is not designed at all, it is something we adopt based upon our real world experiences. It then acts as our compass, steering us through life and in that respect I agree with your analysis. Nonetheless, there is ample evidence to suggest that moral corrosion occurs where behaviours and attitudes go unchecked and unchallenged, a process which leads to behavioural and attitudinal problems bleeding through into other aspects of our lives.


Safespeeed wrote:
I accept the interest in your idealised question - but point out that we have no need to resolve it because the real world is available to determine the practical result.


No need or no desire lest we discover something uncomfortable......(serious question)

Observer and Pete317, I'm not ignoring you and acknowledge the trouble you went to answering, thank you. However, its the moral corrosion and respect erosion element I'm centering in on just now.
If we are challenging something as serious as the current regime of enforcement of speed limits then I want to be absolutely certain in my own mind that we're doing so for the right reasons and have left no stone unturned.
Its very easy, when pursuing a single issue, to lose sight of the bigger picture and the effect ones actions in one domain might have in another.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 19:13 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Rigpig wrote:
Safespeeed wrote:
I accept the interest in your idealised question - but point out that we have no need to resolve it because the real world is available to determine the practical result.


No need or no desire lest we discover something uncomfortable......(serious question)


Well, ish. I would find it difficult to justify something that turned out to be a purely personal view. People DO have different opinions on moral subjects, yet often we cannot say one is right and another is wrong.

As an engineer and as a campaigner, I very strongly prefer arguments that are less subjective and personal. Hell, I want evidence!

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.044s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]