Safe Speed Forums

A long post for which I apologise. I hope the wise have some advice.

Firstly the incident that triggered this post: The road was the A12 in East London a couple of miles away from the turnoff to the M11. It's a twisty bit of dual carriageway with underpasses and speed limits changing from 50 to 40 and back again - it's heavily scammed.

I was a passenger in my girlfriend's car. I was there to help her drive up to Stansted to pick up some friends. She's just passed her test (she's in her mid 20's). This was to be her first drive on the motorway and I went along to hold her hand (figuratively of course) and teach her as best I could.

As we round a bend I can see flashing yellow electronic '40' signs just after the start of a stretch of 50 limit (indicated with a big fixed sign). Then, in the central reservation there's a temporary 30 limit sign - directly parallel with the 50 sign. To top it all off there's a camera 50 yards down the road!

So the poor girl is presented with 3 conflicting limits and a camera. The traffic around is proceeding at 50 (bar the odd panic braker) without getting flashed, so to avoid causing a hazard she carries on at 40-ish without incident. She's quite flustered as I'm sure you can understand. She handled it bloody well though and never did anything but drive smoothly while she did her best to figure out what to do.

Apart from the apalling road management, which is nothing new for London, this incident has highlighted a concern I've had for her since she passed a few weeks ago.

As most here will know if you get pinged twice (6pts) within in a couple of years of passing your test you lose your license. As a consequence she's always on the lookout for cameras and looks at her speedo all the time. Her instructor was a drive-by-the-numbers nazi which hasn't helped.

Like all new drivers she worked really hard for the license. It cost her personally over £1,500 in tuition and test fees and countless hours of sweat and frustration (no blood though fortunately). That's too big an investment not to try and protect. Every time she steps in the car she fears for her license because she knows how hard it is to avoid being pinged.

Robotic enforcement with cameras has made protecting her license her highest priority. There is no education if she makes a small mistake; just a crushingly severe punishment if she does something deemed arbitrarily wrong by a local council.

Instead of enjoying driving and spending her time behind the wheel learning and improving, she's focused on checking her speed. I suppose that makes her a model driver in T2000's book.

The current state of traffic enforcement is bad for those of us who've been driving for a while (I've only been driving 10 years). But what about those who got their wheels after the scams took over policing? If my girlfriend and others like her who've just passed aren't given an environment where they can develop their skills and are encouraged to be safe rather than just 'slow', then Paul's flat-line road death graph is going to revert upwards. I am seriously worried about the effects that a new generation of drivers raised in this culture will have on our road safety in the long term.

All this brings me on to my question: Can the experts here suggest anything my lovely girlfriend can do to develop confidence and learn to focus on safety rather than driving by the numbers? It's a bit soon for IAM perhaps - I know the last thing she wants is another test.

Again sorry for the length but I hope it's a slightly different take on the subject.

Regards,

TGK

She has my sympathies, it's madness isn't it?

I was faced with a similar dilema a few months back. on the A11 or 14 (I forget which it's the road between Thetford and Norwich) the limit changes frequently, a lot of the limits do not seem appropriate (NSL where you'd expect a 40 or 50, 30 where you would expect NSL etc) especially when you had never driven in the area.

Cameras all over the place and there I was doing aprox 50 in a NSL then I see a camera sign, (checks speed) then a great big VAS flashing "Slow Down!". Imediately I'm thrown into confusion, I'm doing less than the speed limit (by a fair margin) but according to the sign I'm too fast, and there's camera up ahead. Now I'm wondering what's the limit? Have I missed a sign? Am I going to get flased? what shall I do?

There's no traffic ahead, and the car behind me is a good distance away, so I slowed right down to 30. Luckily I am also aware enough to see the reason for all this - a junction from which a car is just pulling out!

It was not even a hiden junction it was wide and open and I know what a junction sign looks like.

Great for safety isn't it? If had been less aware and kept checking my speedo I might well have not seen that car and ploghed straight into it. I was very relieved to see the 60 repeater just after the camera as well.

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It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

Thanks.



Absolutely crazy.

I was on that road last weekend - first time; I remember the 50 limit stretch of DC signed as an "Accident Reduction Zone". Given the volume of farm traffic and the number of 90 degree side junctions I can see the point. Still, the cameras make things a nightmare when you don't know the road.

Keep listening to you; you sound like a source of driving wisdom



At times like that, I really wish I had a big flashing sign on my car that said "SOD OFF!".

I went through a Dorset village the other day and set off a VAS which flashed up a frowny face for crying out loud, and again I was not speeding (I was slowing for a junction...), it was just set to go off at about 25.

I would recommend some tutoring/coaching from someone like Ride Drive. I think you will find their coaches (all ex-police I believe) are very laid back, no criticism or testing, just encouragement to improve observation and technique. I have no connection but did do a couple of half-day's with them a year or so ago.

I also did a day with them last year, and I sent the missus off as well. our instructor was still in the force. Like you say, plenty of encouragement. No criticisms, just pointers as to how to improve.

Alright that looks great - thanks. She's got a thing for policemen so I know that'll go down well. Actually maybe it's not such a good idea...



My God. I haven't seen that one yet. If you want one image that sums up everything bad about road policy in Britain there you have it - an automatic, distracting sign with an angry face that comes on at an arbitrarily low speed. Ah well, it's cheaper than a policeman.

I'll tell her a bit meself but I'm a rotten teacher so a session like that Ride Drive will be much better I reckon.

(edited to remove "much more better" from the last line!).

Not sure where you are based but Chelmsford IAM are very keen on new drivers (just after test stage) and will happily spend the extra time, if needed to help improve confidence and driving.

They do have a couple of younger observers so we are not all old anoraks.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Might I suggest that you get an Inforad for her? I run one of these sweet little bits of kit and, in the year that I have owned it, it has paid for itself many times over.
Basically, it is a cheap, simple GPS fixed camera warning system (and is completely legal) that will reassure her that she is travelling at the correct speed in a camera zone and warn her if she is exceeding the limit. The GPS is accurate to 1.6 metres and the speed warning to +/- 0.5 mph.

Go to http://www.gpsinforad.co.uk/ for more information.

For eighty quid you have a non-invasive audible/visual signal that tells you if you are in a ping situation, your status in that situation and you can set the time that you have to react to the Inforad message - all run from your fag lighter socket.
It is not completely foolproof (but what is?) as its detection is spherical and you can get a warning about a site that is parallel to the road you are on, but these are few and far between.
With the Inforad's 'eyes' on the scameras, her eyes will be more on the road than her dashboard - that has to be a plus point!

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Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

While casting no opinion on your post, MGBGT, your sig doesn't really help to add weight to your "trust in technology" argument...

I agree it's too soon for the IAM, and really too soon for most similar training. At this stage it's all about two things:

1) Attitude.
2) Gaining experience.

The optimal attitude is something that can be derived logically. Perhaps I'll be able to write it up sometime today.

And there's absolutely no substitute for gaining experience. It can be difficult, but there's no known shortcut. However rate of acquisition of experience may significantly depend on beliefs and attitude.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

As regards new drivers improving their skills on the type of roads you mention, I'd suggest..

Positive advice:
1. Keep looking further up the road. If something happens half a mile away you need to be aware of it NOW, not when you are 100 yards from it.
2. Read all signs.

On a slightly more negative / pragmatic train of thought, I think speed enforcement cameras and vans should be regarded as an "artificial hazard", thus even if you are obeying the limit it is useful to spot them so that you can deal with the adverse effect they have on other drivers around you.

Secondly, whilst it is of little or no benefit to driving safely, knowing the speed limit in force is obviously of vital importance in terms of protecting your licence. A good "game" to play is to test yourself by asking "what is the speed limit NOW" at random times, and seeing if you know. If you can reach a stage of being 100% right then you know that you are pretty safe from getting inadvertedly nabbed by the revenue men!

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

To a fellow cynic!

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Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

Thanks everyone for your great comments & advice for my partner.

The Ride Drive thing looks like a goer for later in the year. Detector, unobtrusive it may be, is still another distraction. However once she's got more experience I reckon it'd be great for peace of mind.

I let her have a quick go in my Alfa at the weekend when we were out in the middle of nowhere (insured of course). She's talking about enjoying driving now, so next time she gets down about it I've got something that'll keep her interested.

Having her just pass has really made me think about all the mistakes I made after I got my license. I remember now how much there was to take in; I got lost in my home town the first time I went out.

tk

--

Good judgement is the result of experience. Experience comes through bad judgement.

There is a desperate sadness about this thread, that this new driver is filled with fear before any other emotion behind the wheel of a car. Surely, this is a prime directive of this site - that we should never be viewed as wrong-doers waiting to be caught.

Why not take her off to a track-day? Let her have a good old hoon round Goodwood or Brands or Snetterton. Let her feel the joy of the machine that she is driving. She doesn't have to set the track alight with her lap times, just get the feeling of restriction lifted from her. I think that it will do no end toward building her confidence...

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Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

I agree, and part of the reason I posted this here was to highlight what I think is a very unwelcome side effect of current enforcement policy - the damage done to the next generation of drivers. We have some of the safest roads in the world, and by extension that means the best drivers in the world, but that's only because the majority of them didn't start their careers with such draconian penalties hanging over them. At the very least we knew our licenses couldn't be summarily taken away from us by a machine.

Just to jump on the World Cup bandwagon for a minute: it's a bit like being banned from playing if you go offside twice in the first 2 years of your professional career. How good do you think English football would be then?

It's just fear for her license fortunately. In all other respects she's confident and good. I'm sure she'll get past this and all the suggestions here - including the track day - will help keep her interested. She wants a Brera for her next car so I know there's hope!

Seconding the GPS detector option (Personally I would go for the Origin B2. I've not seen the Inforad but the B2 is nice and unobtrusive) the track day option seems like a good idea too. My driving has improved somewhat just after a few goes around a grass track, still need to do a proper track day.

Is pass plus any good these days? I didn't bother myself since I didn't plan on driving for the first two years after passing my test and I don't think you're allowed to do it once you've had your licence for six months.

If you've got someone who knows how to drive and is prepared to sit with you then it's not worth the paper it's written on. Did it was sorely dissapointed as it wasn't of much use - does little to raise standards but is a nice little money spinner.

Paul was wondering why you think it is a little early for IAM, can only go by my group but they find taht the hardest thing is 'un teachin' bad bad habbits, they have had about 20 associates through straight after the test nad they seem have been ok with it, granted the observers spend extra time easing them into it but surely learning better driving skills earlier would be a good thing??

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Just because she's not really up for being tested again just yet! I'd get shot if I suggested it. Maybe 6 months down the line she'll see it differently.

Her instructor echoed your comments on Pass Plus as well.