Safe Speed Forums

This weekend sees the widely known Appleby Horse Fair, which takes place in Cumbria every year.
All over the north, horses, and horse drawn vehicles congregate for the event, many of them ridden or pulled on busy roads.

The authorities have placed warning signs to remind drivers to be aware of the possibility of horse drawn vehicles on the road, but to be honest, many drivers who dont know of the event, dont realise the numbers of horses they are likely to encounter, or how slow they travel.
Sadly, once more, a vehicle has collided with a horse drawn caravan, killing the "driver".
see here
In this instance, other factors appear to be involved, but the stretch of road is dual carriageway - possibly requiring ANTICIPATION on behalf of vehicles in BOTH lanes - a horsedrawn caravan is usually so slow as to appear stationary, when you encounter one at 60-70 mph, and if you are being overtaken when it happens, you might not have anywhere to go if you cannot stop. If you are already in the outside lane, you might be required to make room for the driver on the inside.


Other areas have horse fairs - and this incident deserves some exposure in the press, to highlight the dangers in the days leading up to the event... but unfortunately, speed cameras - which cannot prevent these tragedies, get the publics attention, thanks to their budget and press officer, while these events only make the district news.
I hope that by posting this here, that SOME drivers see it, and heed the warning.
Use COAST and improve yours and the caravaners chances.

Most of all, take heed of those signs... they might be last weeks, or the difference between life and death.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Quite right. We have a lot of horse drawn buggies on the roads in the West Midlands (for some reason) and the other thing you need to be awawre of is that they are, like cyclists, entitled to their wobble! I've seen one stray into the outside lane because the horse has been a bit skittery. They need lots and lots of room, more than a car, when you overtake them.

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the kerb.

[provocation mode on/]

From the descriptions given, surely these unpredictable animals should not be allowed on the roads. There is plenty of room for horses in this country - everywhere that is not tarmac surface.

[provocation mode off/]

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

oh look, our own Jeremy Clarkson, aren't we lucky.

I think it's right to provoke the debate.
The answer is of course that the horses were there first, and in Cumbria, the bridleways (which tend to be quiet, challenging and scenic) are being invaded by 4x4's who want to prove themselves!

The other aspect of this is the provision of temporary warning notices, which are being ignored by a minority of drivers.
Many say the horses should pull over every now and then to allow queues past - but that is often impracticable on some roads - once you pull over, you wont get back out in a vehicle which travels at a walking pace.

A little more consideration is what is required!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Regarding the tragedy on the A66 - what would have happened if that had been a broken down car? Its not just about one particular annual event - drivers should be making allowances for slow-moving or stationary vehicles all year.

I have to say, I don't believe that horses and bicycles should really be on main roads. Its nothing to do with not wanting to be held up (although it can be a little bit frustrating), its more about the safety of the riders. As the above incident highlights, the majority of drivers just don't make adequate provision for slow-moving traffic.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

then surely something should be done about removing drivers with poor observational skills from the roads rather than banning everyone else?

I suppose that's a charge that should be answered. There's a related question that I think is more difficult: If we were designing a roads system from scratch now, would we allow horses to use it alongside motor vehicles? The answer is no, and the example is motorways.

The question is raised: What (or who) are roads for? And this is where we can start to get a proper grip on the 'problem' and the reasons for it. Because motor transport is so commonplace it's easy to assume that the roads are for motor transport. Clearly many people do make this assumption. But the truth is different. Roads (='the Queen's Highway') are public space - available for everyone to use in whatever way they choose (subject to regulation and appropriate behaviour).

Clearly roads (excluding motorways) are NOT for motor vehicles. They are for people...

I considered raising the issue that equestrians used the roads before motor vehicles, but actually I think it's a complete red herring. The right to use the road isn't inherited from an earlier time, instead it is fundamental to the nature of roads.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

....the horse fair is a nightmare every year.
all a bit bonkers if you ask me.

johnsher, I wasn't advocating BANNING horses and bicycles from main roads, just saying that IN MY OPINION its not a safe place to be - I don't like cycling on main roads very much.

I agree 100% with your statement that we should be removing bad drivers from the roads.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Last week I went to Ulverston one evening and returned at dusk. As I was halfway down the Lindale by-pass I came across just such a horse and caravan, unlit and travelling at walking pace with children sat on the tailboard etc.

This is on a downhill stretch of dual carrageway on a long sweeping left hand curve, and particularly in those low light conditions it was extremely difficult firstly to pick up the vehicle and secondly to adjust to the fact that it is all but stationary on a road where the traffic is generally travelling at 70+

Ok, I was able to avoid it without any great drama, but only because I spotted it at the earliest moment I could have done and reacted immediately. It would have taken very little to have turned this scenario into a major accident- a momentary loss of concentration or temporary distraction (dare I say perhaps a driver checking his speedo at the time???).

Either way, it struck me as bordering on suicidal to be travelling along that road at that time with that vehicle. Last year I had a couple of similar encounters on the A66 and it came as no surprise whatsoever to later hear of the tragedy - and again this year.

Whatever the "inherited rights" of people to use the road, there is a major safety issue here. Even a tractor would be travelling at a significantly higher speed, but more importantly no responsible tractor driver would drive along those sorts of roads without taking steps to make their vehicle highly visible, such as a rotating flashing beacon.

The second issue is the extreme congestion that these people cause, which again must lead to no end of safety related issues. Last year I was travelling along the A65 and met ONE such caravan plodding along the other way, followed by nearly twenty miles of stationary traffic. Surely there reaches a point where this becomes obstruction?

As a rule I'm not one for imposing needless restrictions on people, but it seems to me that a bit of common sense management of this situation is needed.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

O/T, but I've always loved that sign on the dual carriageway A27 Near (insert name of racetrack, because I can't remember) that says:

"No racing of horsedrawn vehicles"

I always picture two guys on chariots turning up, seeing the sign and cursing.

Very thought provoking JT. Thanks.

It's about getting the proper balance between rights and responsibilities, and of course defining standards of behaviour. Where there's a serious safety issue then I do think that (broader) rights can and should be overridden.

But let's start with the basic right to use the public highway and adapt to provide for safety as required.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yet if we asked about speed limit signs, there might be a different point of view from some posters here.

Which signs should we obey, and how do we know the difference between the ones we "must" take notice of and the ones which people think are OK to ignore?

What advice do you have on which sections of the highway code are binding, and which ones are a load of tosh?

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I stole this .sig

would be to much to ask the highways authority / or cumbrias finest to escort these horse pulled vehicles to the event,

IMO the organisers should arrange assembly points, maybe with a detour through villages (thus promoting the event) rather than on NSL roads, but if that is not possible a rolling block on faster roads



so is that a point for Ianh to be aware of , due care and attention springs to mind, but dont the roads have VMB



why fetch cameras into it, you hit a horse at 20mph a lot of damage will be done, slow moving vhicles do have a right to be on the roads but NSL that is an area of concern

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now retired

I don't think anyone on this forum disagrees with principle of speed limits BW,

I just think they should be set appropriately and not inconsistently. Local councils have made a real hash of things, i'm sure you agree...

I think what Ernest said was highly relevent.

Speed cameras appear to be THE only road safety strategy at the moment. The current one dimensional approach to road safety would have been totally inefective against prevention these accidents, hence it was appropriate to bring up speed cameras.

I'm not so sure - I sense here a definite thrust for something between a limit and guideline, but frustratingly, there is no way to communicate such fine distinctions. If I believed that people honestly try their best to comply with the limits once set, I’d put my cudgels down and go away. But the fact is that people totally, totally ignore flashing speed signs. You can stand and observe and you won't see a flicker of a car brake light for ages. Sad, but true.

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I stole this .sig

Do you think there is a problem with the way local councils have set speed limits at the moment, or do think the current system is the best way?

You have to admit some of the new speed limits ie within the last 10 years are getting really silly....

By silly i mean inconsistent and not appropriate for the road...


I think many forum users are annoyed that speed limits, an important safety measure have been undermined in this way..

We just need to enforce appropriate speed. The 'communication' required is that no one should drive inappropriately fast. If they don't know what 'appropriate' is and they offend we have done good. If they do know what appropriate is and they offend we have done some good. If they don't offend we don't need to act. It's beautiful in its simplicity and the accuracy of the targeting. What's the problem?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety