Safe Speed Forums

playing the devils advocate is this a change from safe speed into appropriate speed,

no one should drive inappropiately fast !!!!!

very intresting (sorry could not resist)

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now retired

Nah, 'safe speed' and 'appropriate speed' are synonymous (or at least they are in the broad general case).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

thought so

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now retired

me too.

Yes, we definitely need to do that within the absolute limit. And then we
have to enforce the absolute limit as well, because else it is not a limit,
but a guideline. There is no 'third way', is there? Are you in favours of
scrapping limits and introducing general guidelines instead?




Yes, people within the absolute limit who otherwise offend should be
prosecuted, as they are now, or more so.


But please elaborate on your ideas about those outside the limit. Who
would decide if they had offended or not? How would drivers know if they
are offending in that respect? If you are wrongly "said" to be offending by
driving outside the “limit”, what would your appeal process be and who
would hear what evidence? How would people be able to effect changes in
the behaviour of drivers passing through their locales? How could the
public complain about offenders when no tangible or measurable criteria
are in existence? Would drivers who are outside the guidelines and crash
be entitled to sue the road authorities for not making the limits clear?
Would drivers who are crashed into by those outside the limit be entitled
to compo because the government had replaced absolute limits by
guidelines? How could corruption and favouritism be avoided? Could we
be sure that the ad hoc system you propose is fair, in any sense? Would it
be consistent, in any sense? Would it be systematic, measurable or
achievable? How could performance be measured? What metrics could be
gathered from the ad hoc process for improvement at accidents sites and
for deciding resource allocations? What action could be taken at frequent
accident sites to effect improvement, other than posting a permanent
copper there? What would be the criteria that you would ask drivers,
policemen, judges and solicitors to use? How much over the guidelines is
acceptable in what circumstances, exactly? How would the driving norms
be communicated? What would it say in the highway code? What would we
teach new drivers? Is it right to replace limits with guidelines? Would it be
politely acceptable when it comes out that the limits have been replaced
by guidelines?


Sorry for the repetition in any of those questions, but these are some
things that have not yet been explained fully.

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I stole this .sig

The Appleby Horse Fair is attended by equine vehicles from hundreds of miles away, so it is not just a Cumbria problem. Some of the caravans take DAYS to reach Appleby, yet drivers who see signs some distance from the event, treat them with disdain - probably thinking that encountering such a vehicle is unlikely.
This is why I feel it should be more widely publicised, and publicised for longer in advance.
Two weeks ago, the Westmorland Gazette carried a whole page feature on the CSCP, and carried a half page advert with their "Dancing with Death" campaign. There was NO mention of horses or the horse fair. Nor is there any mention on the CSCP website of the fair, and the hazards it brings - and yet this is where vistors might come for information - Kevin Tea tells us so frequently!

Safety???? BO**OCKS!! I hope regular visitors will appreciate that I am not given to pointless swearing or blaspheming, but to try and pass one's self of as a SAFETY organisation, and fail to mention something of this nature is unforgivable! Remember, it was I who had to prompt them to put a link to the online highway code on their website!!

I am sorry Camera Operator, if things are different in your area, but here in Cumbria, the "Safety Camera Partnership" is a waste of time and money. It's merely an old boys club for ex-Gray Funnel line employees, to line their pockets taking pictures of speeding drivers, yet letting them travel on unimpeeded, and promoting a website full of twisted statistics, and pointless accident data trivia!

Basingwerk.
I have to confess that I FREQUENTLY ignore speed limit signs, and instead feel free to drive at a speed I feel happier (safer) with.

This being a typical example!

Ings is the best (or worst) example of an inappropriate limit.
It was the result of a petition by local residents, NOT a road safety professional. There was never a concern from road safety officers about the limit at Ings, their only concerns were addressed by the engineering of the road.
This is the road which winds THROUGH the village,

and the main road which bypasses most of the village apart from a few houses and the filling station looks like this:


and prior to the pointless limit AND speed cameras, the traffic moves freely at around 45 - 55 mph, quite safely - this picture was taken on the same day as the queue in Ings!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Incidentally, the buildings on the left side of the road in the long shot of Ings, are a farm, where they stable HORSES. The paddocks where the horses are kept are on the right.
Now that the traffic is bunched up by being slowed, it's not unusual to see a horse being held at the roadside, waiting to cross, just at the start of the 40 limit!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I think the right to use the roads thing is an interesting one. I do however wonder what the requirements are regarding the orange lights on slow moving vehicles.

Certainly every tractor or breakdown truck or unusual HGV load has them. Perhaps you could make them a legal requirement for horses travelling on all roads of 50 or higher. At the very least it's certainly a good idea that perhaps the horse riders could take onboard.

Paul also mentions about if you designed a road network today, would you allow horses onto it, bringing up motorways as an example. I'd like to take that one step further and include A roads. Whilst A roads are available for anyone to use the intended purpose of them was to allow high speed motor vehicle traffic. If you put too much slow traffic onto them, the roads no longer function as designed.

Perhaps a solution would be to relax the requirements necessary for an A road to gain (M) status, bringing it closer to the point where any A road can have motorway restrictions put on it. Obviously the requirement that a parallel(ish) non-restricted route must exist or be built should remain.

I do agree that there should be more publicity about horse and cycle related events so that large numbers of drivers aren't caught out in the worst possible way. If I'd known about the recent one near Builth Wells in Wales, then our car club rally would probably have been arranged for a different weekend.

To be fair, the chap who was killed was travelling from Durham to Appleby via the A66.
There is not much chance of a detour to a quieter route - there are too few routes at this point of the trans Pennine crossing - everytime there is an accident, and the road is blocked, and all cross country traffic ceases.

Because the journey is so slow, you cannot expect the horsedrawn caravans to use anything other than the most direct route.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'm not sure where a rider is going to be able to place this orange light tbh!

I think reflectives are a necessity in all weathers and adequate lighting (available for riders) compulsory at night.

Unfortunately even getting to bridle paths can involve roadwork. Nearest bridle path to me is about 3 miles away and farmers won't always let people ride over their land.

Absolutely.

By the way BBC Radio Travel has been including Appleby's Horse Fair on each bulletin.

Am surprised your local press carried very little. One of the Durham local papers has featured the Appleby event in its "Things to Do and See section" and also mentioned that these "majestic beasts and colourful caravans" need extra care.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I hope Lum was infering it should be the caravans!

However, locally there are a few riders who utilise the flashing LED armband's which were designed with cyclists in mind.

My youngest son has one when he walks to school in winter months.

This weeks Westmorland Gazette featured the report on the accident - tucked away inside, and a picture on the front cover of riders at the fair, but no safety comment.

As for the "SAFETY" Camera Partnership website, not a single mention!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Oh OK I was racking my brains a bit there.


Yes I do too; very effective when getting dark; horse gets one goes on each leg plus riders can get heavier duty flashing arm and leg lights too. It is possible, with a bit of thought, to light yourself up like a Christmas tree, and be seen.

I wasn't being specific about whether it was on the caravan or on the horse.

There's no reason why you can't place them on the horses/riders though.

Some good places would be on the stirrups, anywhere on the riding gear or even on the riders helmet, ok you'd look a bit of a tit with a flashing orange light on your helmet but perhaps that would discourage unnecessary journeys on NSL roads at the times when alternative routes are freely available.

Being more realistic though, I think reflective bands or coats as worn by many cyclicts and motorbikers are a good idea. I have yet to see a horse rider wearing these.

A lot of the riders in our locality wear flourescent tabards, usually with a very sensible message on the back like "Please pass slow and wide". I've also seen horses with flourescent "socks"; both are extremely effective, never more so than when you encounter a dark coloured horses in the gloaming.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Funny how regionally things vary. I guess the Oxenholme Pony Club, and Lakes Riding Club have encouraged this sort of safety behaviour, because as JT points out, it is widespread. Around Blackpool, they dont seem to have any road sense from what I have seen!

I took a trip past the site where the unfortunate caravan driver was killed tonight.
Only half a mile before, I encountered this:


There was a further red warning triangle depicting a caravan, and saying "Appleby Horse Fair" on.
However, not many cars taking much notice, but the Lorry drivers seemed on the ball - I saw one slow, and pull out into lane two to pass a broken down car and breakdown vehicle.
The car following him took no notice of his indicator etc. and nearly plowed into the broken down car!

Later, at Kirkby Stephen, 3 horses were being led along the road, around a bend, with double white lines. A male was walking the outside verge, waving cars back until it was clear, then waving them on when it was safe to pass.
A 4x4 in front of me ignored the signal to hang back, and tried to drive around the bend on the wrong side... and met a Chrysler Voyager coming the other way... at some speed. Luckily they managed to avoid each other, mainly the Voyager driver, who mounted the verge as he braked narrowly missing the man signalling other traffic.
BOTH drivers needed some lessons in driving improvement while those leading the horses did everything they could to make themselves as little danger or inconvenience as possible.!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ahh yes and fluorescent tabards not so sensible that say "does my bum look big on this?" (truly) mine does say what you quoted JT (as I don't need a sign asking people's opinions . My horse has dark pink fluorescent boots and are very effective as she's a 'white' coloured grey.

Rhiannon, it does not look as though you have been welcomed to Safespeed!

Welcome! I dont believe you are the ONLY "jockey" here!

My point at the start of this thread was that this event needs wider publicity, to help protect horse drawn traffic, AND motorists from coming to grief.

However, that is just the start of the story, as I firmly believe we need more of those old fashioned common sense motoring safety messages on the TV, every night.
How do you view the standards of driving on our roads in general?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ahh



Agree there, people are too impatient. On the other hand as a driver myself I can see both sides and see riders not being very helpful. I do pullover when I can even if it means going up on pavement for a while to assist the flow of traffic. I see riders not bothering at all. My opinion is people out on horses should be at least over 16 years of age or accompanied by an adult.



Changing people's attitudes is quite difficult. Unfortunately people forget they SHARE the roads.



Want my honest opinion? Sloppy driving drives me mad. However driving is my profession and I have to take stock that most people see as it as a means from getting to A > B (as I once did lets be honest here). I need (and want) to keep my driving up as any other professional does in their own industry.

However driving standards does of course impact everyone else on the road. I have to just close my eyes (not literally of course). It makes a good topic point for showing students how not to drive and at times how not to behave!

You did ask Ernest!

A further accident involving a horse drawn caravan and a lorry this week.

On the A590 - driver of the caravan was hurt - but not the two children on board.
The Lorry driver was arrested - turned out to be a disqualified driver! I dont suppose that is a comment on his standard of driving....!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!