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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:00 
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Daily Telegraph

Quote:
House selling packs 'to cost £1,000'
By George Jones and Rosie Murray-West
(Filed: 17/06/2006)

The Government's planned home information packs, which it claims will speed up housing transactions and stop money being wasted on surveys, were condemned last night as "expensive, deficient and dangerous".

Home information packs will not need to include information on flood risk or land contamination

The pack, which it is estimated will cost the vendor as much as £1,000, will be compulsory for anyone selling a home after June 1 next year.

If the home is off the market for more than 28 days, the pack will have to be updated, involving more expense.

The scheme's opponents also fear that some people could face bills of many thousands of pounds if they try to sell property without a pack, or HIP.

There will be a fine of £200 a day for any property that is on the market without one, even if it is advertised on a private website or simply by a board in the garden. A Law Society survey last month showed that most people had never heard of the packs.

They will contain a mini survey, called a home condition report, searches and a report detailing the energy efficiency of the building.

However, Nick Salmon, a London estate agent who runs the anti-HIP pressure group Splinta, said that most buyers would still commission their own survey.

"A home condition report paid for by the seller raises conflict of interest issues," he said. "In Denmark, where they have had the packs for 10 years, 80 per cent of buyers have their own survey done."

The Government slipped out details this week of what would be in the packs. It emerged that they would not need to include information on flood risk, natural subsidence, radon gas or land contamination, leading to fears that many people would either not trust the packs or be left without vital knowledge about their prospective homes.

Mr Salmon said there were also fears that there would not be enough inspectors to carry out the home condition reports, because many people who had registered to do the job had not started training.

The job is expected to be popular with retired people and mothers returning to work but, because details about the packs have been so late in coming, many have delayed starting the courses.

Michael Gove, the Conservative spokesman on housing and planning, said the packs would cost nearly £1,000 for a detached home and £800 for a semi, compared with the Government's original estimate of about £600.

"If a sale falls through, sellers face being charged a second time to produce a new pack," he said. "Buyers will still need to purchase additional valuations, especially if, like most first-time buyers, they have a loan-to-value mortgage of 80 per cent or more.

"Their refusal to tell families whether the back gardens will be safe for their children or about potential flood risks delivers a serious blow to the credibility of these so-called information packs. The Government would be better to scrap the scheme than deliver expensive, deficient and dangerous information to potential home-buyers."

Mr Gove's view is shared by many estate agents, who will have to administer the new selling regime.

Jeff Doble, the managing director of Dexters agency, in Teddington, south-west London, said: "I am going to have to put my fees up and I don't like doing that because I don't think this is giving my clients value for money.

"You would be hard pushed to find an estate agent who supports the packs. The Government has not listened to any of the committed people in this industry."

The home condition report section of the pack will expire after six months. If a property is taken off the market for more than 28 days and is then placed back on the market, the pack creation process must start again.

Documents, including searches, cannot be more than three months old when they are created at this "first point of marketing", requiring the seller to pay for a new or updated pack.

The Government has also admitted that the home condition report is likely to replace valuation surveys in only about half of sales in the early stages. Critics say that is a gross underestimation.

If the loan-to-value ratio exceeds 80 per cent - around 40 per cent of cases in which a mortgage is required - a separate valuation is still likely to be required. That would mean most first-time buyers still having to pay for valuations.


They're doing with houses what they are doing with cars, they know people cannot do without cars, houses, so lets use them to clobber people.

Quote:
If the home is off the market for more than 28 days, the pack will have to be updated, involving more expense.


What could possibly have changed in a month to make that much difference?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:36 
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Don't forget this means more jobs - as "home condition surveyors " or some other PC title - more jobsworths to infiltrate the system - wonder how the estate agents feel about that or will they be jumping on the bandwagon.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:51 
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I don't know where they think the low paid are going to find that amount of money. 1000 is several year's savings to a lot of people. What happens to the people who are selling up due to being in debt? They will be stuck even more.

It's jobs for the boys. Some company will be making millions and giving some to the labour party which is the only reason any legislation is brought in. Serco and siemens give money to the labour party and they're involved in making speed cameras, red light cameras and traffic lights which says it all. Common sense or a desire to improve things for real people is not even on their agenda.

A mass boycott of the packs is the only answer. Once there are no houses on the market and the property market looks like it will stall and crash then they'll back down. They're on about fining people £200 a day if their house is on the market without one of these packs. I suppose the only answer is to say 'take me to court as your fines are illegal....'

Yet another reason to emigrate from this dump.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:34 
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I wonder if you could circumvent the system by under stating the facilities in the house. I E

This house has no certified electric system, no energy saving systems, no gas or central heating approved system it needs the roof serveying and the floorboards we do however provide a title deed and a council search.

Then it would almost be back to square 1.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 13:11 
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My estimate is that this idea will last about 12 months, before the Gov't realise it's not in their best interests.

The reason it's not in their interests is because it will devastate the housing market so they'll lose a King's Ransom in Stamp Duty.

Firstly, people will stop marketing their houses "speculatively". A lot of people put their houses up for sale at the moment on the off-chance that someone will pay them a high price. So not only are they not all that serious about selling, but they will tend to have an unrealistically high asking price. Whilst their house might not sell, what it does do is help to gradually inflate prices generally, as the house 2 doors down which is up for slightly over its value now looks like a good deal.

Meanwhile, presuming that these packs will only be valid for so long, then there is not only pressure to sellers only to sell when they are serious about it, but also a time constraint upon them to settle for a fair price before their seller pack "elapses" and runs them up another £1000 bill.

So either way, it looks like asking prices are set to tumble, which will hurt the Government far more than they'll gain through the taxes on the packs themselves. So I reckon they'll realise this after about 12 months and revert to the previous system as fast as their little legs will carry them!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 13:35 
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It will benefit cash buyers at the lower end of the market as they will get extra information for nothing. You can then play the system by being on the lookout for houses for sale which are near the end of their pack expiry and jump in with a low offer. The seller will probably take it just to avoid having to fork out more money to update the pack.

Have they considered the market for fake packs? How many buyers will check the pack is real?

The only way I can see to sort out the housing market is to sell more properties via an auction. You don't have anywhere near as much waiting around. Also banks/building societies could be more helpful in offering bridging loans so more people can buy a house and sell their current one in their own time and avoid having such large chains. It is the whole can't buy another house until you have sold your existing one which is the big problem in the housing market. Imagine having the same conditions upon buying a car?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:05 
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So basically they are juggling on how to introduce this new money raking scheme without pi&&ing too many voters/rich people off.

How about something like

HOME PACKS SAVE LIVES or SELLING HOMES 'KILL'.

Yep, that should do it.

Quote:
Ministers believe that the packs will make gazumping - when buyers are outbid by rivals at a very late stage of the house-buying process - harder to achieve


Well here's a crazy idea, do what the scots do, its quite easy and doesn't incur any extra overhead, oh yea but wait, thats the problem isn't it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 17:47 
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I predict, that, just like the end of double income mortgage tax relief (which was also announced in advanse) that there will be a flury of sales accompanied by a sharp rise in prices while those that can attempt to beat the deadline. After the deadline the market will stall and prices will plummit.

Just you wait and see!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 01:00 
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They did want to do it to new houses as well, but given that new houses come under the 10 year warrenty and also come with a Homeowner pack that incorporates a H&S File and O&M's the major housebuilders kicked up stink at producing another bunch of paperwork.

Things that I from a H&S perspective would like to see in a Home owner pack:

Details of any asbestos in the property, either in the fabric of the building or items like asbestos cement water tanks.
Details of ground contamination or previous useage that could give hints for conatmination.
Floodwater plains/water table details.
Whether the services are in good condition.
Damp and any indicators of damp proofing having been breached.
Subsidence.

Then we have the physical condition info and searches info.

From what I've seen there doesn't seem to be much of use in the packs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 09:44 
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No, I can't see it either. Caught a little on BBC2 Working Lunch where they interviewed one of the many new people being employed to do the inspections for the packs, and it didn't seem to be a million miles away from what the surveyor should be doing, so why isn't the scope of the structural survey just being extended?

We are looking at about 7000 new people being employed to do this work, with self financed training and examinations costing about £7000 each and taking up to a year to complete. The program was more about the job opportunity, than the real justification for the work, but they are apparently rather short on qualified inspectors at the moment.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 09:52 
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I just wonder what these examiners will be doing, will they be taking photos and details that could be used as part of the (government/council) valuation tax on houses that has been mentioned. Is this being used as a disguise?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 00:01 
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Dixie wrote:
I just wonder what these examiners will be doing, will they be taking photos and details that could be used as part of the (government/council) valuation tax on houses that has been mentioned. Is this being used as a disguise?



Dixie - thought likewise , then stoped , as someone will come on and accuse us of a major conspiracy theory (ALLO RIGPIG)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 20:41 
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teabelly wrote:
They're on about fining people £200 a day if their house is on the market without one of these packs. .


I wonder how "On the Market" is defined?

An American friend of my Dads some years ago had an interesting attitude towards house buying. He never went to estate agents. if he wanted to move he simply traveled arround the area he wanted to move to knocking on the doors of houses that he liked untill he found somebody who was willing to sell (Or swap with cash adjustment). On average I would guess that somewhere between 1:10 and 1:20 house holders might be interested. Sounds like a good stratagy to me. What if everybody started doing this??

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 Post subject: HIPS out!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 13:52 
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The home condition report has been removed from the packs and they are also no longer going to be compulsory from next June. Sounds like a massive U turn to me :twisted: A modicum of intelligence has prevailed.

Too bad other half arsed schemes mooted include carbon swipe cards in a desperate attempt to shut the greenies up who are moaning about rich people still having a good time while they can no longer afford it and a call for all out of town shopping centres to charge for parking. As usual Government have forgotten they encouraged out of town shopping in the first place as they wanted those naughty cars out of the towns. Councils have also whacked up business rates so much in town businesses are struggling. It would seem much more sensible to ban charging for parking in town centres instead of forcing out of town places to charge. Like to see them try as they're mostly private land so I don't see what business government have poking in their nose. Some buffoon thinks people will suddenly start taking the bus there.Like anyone is really going to go to sofa warehouse or comet on the bus?! Typical civil servant living in cuckoo land who has this utopian vision of the masses pootling around on public transport and not ever having to buy anything bigger than a teabag.

I already do a lot of internet shopping and having these out of town places foist parking charges upon me (I stopped using one as they had those stupid trolleys with the £1 coin slots) will just mean the high street and now the out of town places will die a death instead. I already shop in Cheshire rather than Staffs as the nearest places (congleton and sandbach) have free parking. I deliberately go there to spend money. Also those centres seem to have less of a problem with dodgy looking people hanging around on benches talking to themselves which Stoke, Hanley & Newcastle seem to be plagued.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 22:56 
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anton wrote:
I wonder if you could circumvent the system by under stating the facilities in the house. I E

This house has no certified electric system, no energy saving systems, no gas or central heating approved system it needs the roof serveying and the floorboards we do however provide a title deed and a council search.

Then it would almost be back to square 1.


I like that idea.

My idea was to offer an 'Invitation to View' and then, if someone was genuinely interested, the 'horse-trading' could begin.

From reports I've heard, there was an estimated need for approximately 4,000 Home Inspectors with currently 2,000 in training. It seems that many of those 2,000 will now have wasted their money.

I think the main resistance has come from the Lenders themselves. After all when one considers the present system whereby the Lender appoints a Surveyor for an agreed fee which the Lender passes on to the Buyer.

The Buyer then pays that fee to the Lender who then passes it on to the Surveyor. What is not in the Public Domain (and never will be) is the proportion of that amount that is then passed back by the Surveyor to the Lender as an 'Introduction Fee' (or whatever they choose to call it).

Having 'independent' Home Inspectors, and a requirement for Lenders to accept reports from such persons, effectively takes the Lenders out of this lucrative loop.

And the very fact that acquiring anything required to be contained in these Home Information Packs, will invariably attract VAT, it constitutes yet another 'Stealth Tax'.


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