Safe Speed Forums

I found this recent BBC article a little earlier. Bit worrying

I see this a lot at a local crossroads, and while I never saw or heard about any accidents as a result presumably enough people complained about it to get a couple of red light cameras installed. Shame they're pointing in the wrong direction - I've only ever seen jumping from traffic on the minor road going E-W and the cameras are pointing N and S on the main road so nothing has changed as far as I can see. Maybe there have been some near misses or crashes that I never heard about, but it worries me that light jumping is still going on there.

I've also got to say in fairness to cyclists that it's hard to slag them off for ignoring red lights if drivers are starting to do the same. We're hardly on the moral highground if this becomes commonplace, though I think it's likely that a greater proportion of cyclists are guilty of this. I have nothing to base that on other than what I see myself on the road.

It does make me think that we need to have some publicity about this - a new set of adverts about amber gamblers perhaps, though it seems that some are actually leaving it so late they're going through on red .. There needs to be greater emphasis on the fact that amber doesn't mean "you only have a few seconds to get across so you'd better floor it". If I'm close to a light when it goes amber I might accelerate a little depending on exactly where I am, but I worry when people do that from 50 odd yards back. Doubly so if I'm a passenger. Equally, I've nearly been rear ended more than once when I've stopped for an amber light and the twat behind was accelerating to get through, and being a double twat assumed I was going to do the same thing.

What's the solution? I have read an article (which I can't find now) that suggested a longer amber phase might be the answer. IIRC it claimed that longer amber phases were at least as effective as a traffic light camera. I suppose it's possible, but I'd have thought it would encourage more people trying to get through on amber. Perhaps not right away, but before long I'd have thought people would realise that they now had 8 seconds instead of 5 (or whatever) and we'd be back to square one. No ambers? Well, though I've never had the experience of driving in a country where they don't use amber lights I know that there are a few. Red is absolutely unequivocal, and without the red+amber phase before the green you won't have the eejits doing their Schumacher starts early. On the other hand, would panic braking at red lights become a problem? And how would you change the settings on the red light cameras to allow for drivers who only had a few feet of space before the light went red?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I'm worried about red light cameras. We have to look at the different reasons that folk go across on the red.

Type 1: Never sees the red light, or sees it too late to react to it.

Type 2: Recklessly ignores the red light

Type 3: Goes through early in the red phase having misjudged the lights changing (the amber gambler).

Type 4: Treats the red light as a give way, and goes when he thinks it is clear to do so.

Types 1 and 2 are highly dangerous, yet are not affected by red light cameras.

Types 3 and 4 may be caught by red light cameras, but then they were not dangerous and if amber gamblers are a problem then an all red phase will make the situation safe at a particular junction.

Changing the length of the amber is a very bad idea - we need to know how long it is in order to judge if we can brake or not. All UK Ambers are 3 seconds.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If he's a licensed driver, Type 2 may be affected by a red light camera.


I think the usual recommendation if there is a problem with accidents resulting from red light running at a particular junction is to have a longer all-red period rather than a longer amber period.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Have you ever heard of a normally licenced driver deliberately running a red light? It's stolen cars and escaping criminals isn't it? And even if it isn't always, the high degree of recklessness involved would tend to indicate that a red light camera is unlikely to figure in the plan, don't you think?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Oh Paul, perhaps in the Scottish Highlands maybe, but down here....

A41 Cosford Junction.
Jumping the red lights is extremely common. Whilst waiting to cross the major road (E/W) one day, the lights changed to green in my favour and I moved forward, only for two cars at the tail end of a group of half a dozen sailed through the red light from the opposite side to the extent they passed behind me to execute their right turn. Jumping the lights from this particular direction is suicidal because, if there is no vehicle waiting where I was, the sequence jumps straight to the main A41, and if someone is approaching as the lights change they can go through at 30-40 mph.
On another occaision, whilst waiting at the same light as above, the car in front of me just decided to go, straight through the red light.
Vehicles also jump the lights on the main A41 N/S all the time.

At the junction not 200 yards from where I now live vehicles jump the lights frequesntly. In fact, when they are approaching from the left you can often tell when the lights have gone to amber because they floor it from way, way back to get through.

Why do they do it? Well the article Gatsobait pointed to says it all - impatience and aggresiveness with perhaps a smattering of "unlikely to get caught due to less policing".

Ahh you haven't read the thread properly have you?

I'm talking about Type 2s and you're talking about Type 3s.

Totally different...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm either playing devil's advocate or being a picky sod, you decide , but I'm not sure I'd say unaffected either. Isn't it more accurate to say that they were not put off by the presence of the camera the first time, but they'll still get a ticket from the camera. That may affect them for next time, though of course some of the problems with speeds cams could then apply as well (distraction by camera at lighted junctions? overcaution?). In any event, that's all assuming that it's (a) their car and (b) the registration details are okay. Given your post about ANPR I recognise that may not always be the case, and anyway there's likely to be a significant number of Type 2 drivers that recklessly ignore the lights because the car's nicked.

I think that's the type that the BBC article I linked to in the OP was on about. If the numbers of type 3 are on the rise, and I'm inclined to believe they are, then they're the ones that worry me.

I'm not convinced that Type 3 isn't dangerous. By definition they have misjudged the timing of the lights and therefore may not anticipate traffic coming from the side if another amber gambler has gone early on his amber. Also, as I mentioned before you have the guy who floors it to try and get across on amber and fails to consider that the car in front of him may intend to stop for the light.

What do you mean by an all red phase? Do you mean no amber lights or do you mean a period of a few seconds when all approaches to junction show red lights? The latter sounds like a good idea as it wouldn't require any changes to be made to existing lights other than some re-programming at the places where it's needed.

Here's the article, http://www.techcentralstation.com/020602C.html, relevant section begins about 1/4 the way down.Yeah, I'm not convinced either, though perhaps not for the same reasons. I think that eventually drivers will adjust to any change and we're back to where we are now. It might possibly work if a way could be found to get all drivers to treat ambers correctly, but then if you could do that you wouldn't need to make the amber phase longer.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Yes, if you define "running a red light" as "going through at speed 2 or 3 seconds after the light has changed to red" this is commonplace in Manchester. I see it very often at M60 Junction 1 at the bottom of my road. I assume people driving newish BMWs, Golfs etc are licensed drivers.

This is not "type 3 misjudgment" - it gives the appearance of being knowing and deliberate.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Paul, I'm talking about what I see with my own eyes sir. Normally licenced drivers taking a calculated gamble to run a red light. What I see on too regualr a basis isn't accidental, mistiming, misjudgement or anything similar. Its deliberate.

I've over egged this cake. I was conscious that I needed to add more to my first reply but got interrupted by the telephone and sent it anyway.

I do think that under some circumstances red light cameras might be helpful. I don't object to red light cameras.

BUT, and it a very big but, may of the big crashes at red lights won't be affected by red light cameras. They involve utterly reckless behaviour - just driving through a red light, and drivers who simply never see the light. These crashes are more or less unaffected.

"Amber Gambler" crashes aren't usually big ones because at least one stream of traffic is hardly moving. Neither do I believe that amber gambler crashes are a very common type.

Where there are amber gambler crashes, the best solution is an "all red" phase, where the lights go red in all directions for a few seconds. (I wasn't suggesting changing the traffic light sequence).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm not sure about this. It could cause frustration, and lead people to believe that it is still safe to cross the lights a few seconds after they change to red.

I have known people who would deliberately and intentionally cross a red light, albeit one which had just changed. Definately not a misjudgement in these cases, a deliberate act. (Yes this was in my white van man days ) Indeed they made use of the slim window where all sets were at red. They would also watch for the other set turning red in order to be first over the line, sometimes setting off even before the amber light.



As long as there is that little bit of reflected light on the inside of the cowl you'll always have advanced warning of the lights changing if you are paying attention. Without the amber some people will have an even biger advantage than they do now.

[added]
This picture

Sums up one of the problems which sometimes occurs. Too many sets of lights too close together causing confusion. (yes I know that's not a real junction but I have seen some getting nearly as complex).

Where you can see it, yes, but it's not always possible. The other one is seeing other traffic approaching the junction and suddenly start slowing. Doesn't always happen obviously, but when it does it's as obvious as your own amber light that it's time to get ready to go. Never seen anyone go that early though.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Now imagine what happens when two of these people meet each other.

Would a red light camera have got me in the following scenario, (which happened a couple of weeks ago)?

Stopped at (red) lights on Ashford ring road (one-way). Traffic joining 30 yards up ahead on left. I'm the only car in the middle lane, traffic waiting in lanes either side of me) Hear sirens behind me, Fire engine coming up fast on blue light. I check to see if any pedestrians crossing (none) so decide to pull out of the way in front of the waiting traffic in the third lane five yards up the road. Fire engine not inconvenienced & I rejoin the traffic when lights change. Sensible bit of driving I thought, but would I have been nabbed by a red light camera if there had been one? Silly if this was the case.

Presumably yes, I can't see how the camera could take any account of the circumstances.

I should co-co

What is so disconcerting about this story is how representative it is of the corrosion of respect for the authority of the system.
We've tried amber gambling and got away with it, now lets go one step further and gamble on the red as well - what comes next?
Perhaps the increasing trend that I have noticed, for people to just pull out (and to hell with your right of way) of junctions and onto roundabouts relying on the fact that you would sooner brake than simply run into them
Ultimately, the system relies on drivers behaving in a reasonable and responsible manner. If otherwise normal people stop doing that, where the hell do we end up?

I think the UK is one of the few countries in which the change to green is preceded by the simultaneous red/amber combo. In all other countries I've driven in (mostly Europe plus the USA) the light changes directly from red to green. This phasing was tried in the UK back in the 1960s, in my home town of Leicester, but we reverted back to conventional UK phasing because it was felt that the other way did not give pedestrians enough warning. I don't like our red/amber combo. It tempts people to move off before they should - overlooking the fact that the red light is still there...



I wouldn't mind seeing a longer amber phase in the UK. Consider this scenario. You're on a single carriageway road, speed limit 60mph, and you're approaching a crossroads controlled by a traffic light. At 60mph, the stopping distance given in the Highway Code is 240ft. But in 3 seconds, a car doing 60mph will cover 264ft. That means that if the light changes when the approaching car is 264ft away, the driver will have only 24ft in which to react, and that 24ft equates to 0.27sec - not a huge amount of time to react, given that the Highway Code figures assume the minimum stopping distance and are given for dry, level roads and an alert driver. So, in my scenario above, if the light changed when the car approaching at 60mph was between 241-264ft from the light, the driver would not be able to stop the car in time. (At 264ft he might just make it) The minimum make or break distance in which a driver must decide whether or not to go through needs to be more than 24ft. The current setup leaves too small a margin for error.

Admittedly, there's likely to be a speed limit at such a crossroads. But I can remember being caught out in a scenario like this, and there was no speed limit other than the national limit which, before 1974, was 70mph even on single carriageway roads. (The old A6 at Rothley, Leics - for anyone who knows it)

Obviously you will get used to whatever system is in operation, but I have to say I found the immediate red to green switch in France disconcerting. Unless you're staring intently at the lights it's all too easy to miss the change and find drivers behind hooting at you, whereas the red-amber phase gives you more time to spot it.

It's also rare in my experience in the UK to see other drivers move off much before the red-amber has turned to green.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

We were discussing this here recently. I more or less agree with your numbers, but my conclusion is that traffic lights are generally unsuitable for 60 or 70mph limit roads.

For some reason, I can't find the other discussion, but we did go into some detail. Anyone know where it is?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety