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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 20:08 
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eurostar wrote:
I don’t mind admitting that I’m an ex-motorcyclist who used to charge around at 150+ with false plates. I’m quite relieved to have made it alive this far, and am now happy to rely exclusively on cycling combined with public transport. No, I’m not banned! I even have a clean insurance history, and a motorcycle parked outside, but I haven’t touched it for 6 months and I’ll probably sell it. Seems to me that engines bring out the aggressive selfish side of far too many men, me included.

Hmmmm. All sounds a bit Implausible to me.... :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 20:13 
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I know it sounds implausible, but I spent 4 months touring abroad by bicycle last year and now I'm hooked on bicycles. Which bit do you find hard to believe?


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Sorry If I sounded a but suspicious. we get all sorts on here. Trolls make up all sorts of ficticious stories as wind-ups.

Just seamed a bit strange to go from one extreem to another.

I drive, I ride a motorbike. Spend most of my trime cruising and enjoying the ride, not racing around even though the bike is well capable.

Most hear agree that the decline of traffic pols is a bad thing. But that there is more to it than that.....anyway thats for another thread... :wink:

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No-one's ever suspected me of being a troll before! But I''m not here to start a row. I popped in just to see if this place is the hotbed of motor fascism that some C+ members would have you believe. But you seem quite reasonable people really. It was nice to read Paul Smith's explanation for his famous "controlling the traffic" remark. Put in its correct context it seems perfectly reasonable.

Your approach to driving sounds much more sensible than mine - I just couldn't stop treating every journey like a race, always trying to set personal bests. I took up racing thinking I might slow down when on the road. And I did my advanced test to see if I could set safety as my goal, instead of speed. But I just got quicker. I even bought a slow bike, but then it became more of a challenge to annoy people on sports bikes by passing them. It really is best for me and other road users if I stick to pedalling!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 08:02 
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Keep the motorbike.

Maybe we can organise a SafeSpeed ride out in the spring.... :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:41 
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eurostar wrote:
No-one's ever suspected me of being a troll before! But I''m not here to start a row. I popped in just to see if this place is the hotbed of motor fascism that some C+ members would have you believe. But you seem quite reasonable people really. It was nice to read Paul Smith's explanation for his famous "controlling the traffic" remark. Put in its correct context it seems perfectly reasonable.

Your approach to driving sounds much more sensible than mine - I just couldn't stop treating every journey like a race, always trying to set personal bests. I took up racing thinking I might slow down when on the road. And I did my advanced test to see if I could set safety as my goal, instead of speed. But I just got quicker. I even bought a slow bike, but then it became more of a challenge to annoy people on sports bikes by passing them. It really is best for me and other road users if I stick to pedalling!


I too have a hard time fully believing the story. But assuming it to be true, there's a "self regulation" mechanism that you may have somehow missed.

Assuming that you really did get faster and faster, as soon as you exceed safe thresholds you start having incidents. Most intelligent folk recognise the incidents and take steps to prevent re-occurances.

Of course there's a risk that the first incident is a dangerous crash, but experience suggests that this is actually very unlikely. As a general rule "far misses" out number near misses by 10:1 and near misses outnumber crashes by 10:1, so on average I expect an aware driver/rider to get something like 100 warnings for every crash.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 13:27 
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Actually I did have regular "incidents" until about 10 years ago and was fortunate not to be hospitalised or killed. My response was to improve my skill level, by having lessons at race schools, and at the Nurburgring, and on off road courses in Wales. Then I took up racing, for two seasons only, because it was so expensive. The incidents stopped - I became a very fast rider but no longer had any frights.

My speed on ordinary roads reached a plateau. I felt I'd achieved the right balance between competitiveness and safety. I was never overtaken by another bike, but I no longer frightened myself because I had learned how to cope with difficult situations without panicking. (N.B. For all you car drivers out there, never assume that a biker can do an emergency stop from a speed greater than 20 mph. Most never learn to.) I was also very good at anticipating other road users because I had been a despatch rider several years before.

So I rode around very fast for several years. But then I bought a very VERY fast bike. My motorway speed got higher - an indicated 190 was my "personal best". I also took the bike to an airstrip to experience an indicated 220 (which was actually only 184 on the radar!) False plates made me feel invulnerable - I would copy the registration from a double decker bus and change it every 2 or 3 months after I'd tripped a fair number of cameras or after being chased by the police. I decided I was going to race the Eurostar, from Waterloo to Gare du Nord. (This was before the journey time shrank last year because of improvements to the line.) I had an oversized tank made to increase my range, and was out practising one day on the M40 at about 160 when I was chased by an unmarked police car. I escaped in traffic at the next junction, but I decided that getting all the way to Paris at that speed would not be possible without being arrested and almost certainly jailed. I knew that others would regard me as a homicidal fruitcake (actually I'm a touch manic/depressive) and being so far on the wrong side of the law was making me feel almost sick with tension. So I thought enough was enough.

You may find this story implausible, but I don't think a police officer would have trouble believing it. And I'm afraid it's all true. It's a relief to have given up and "made my confession" here where I know police officers may read it. I'm really very sorry about the whole saga.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 17:24 
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eurostar wrote:
I don’t mind admitting that I’m an ex-motorcyclist who used to charge around at 150+ with false plates. I’m quite relieved to have made it alive this far, and am now happy to rely exclusively on cycling combined with public transport. No, I’m not banned! I even have a clean insurance history, and a motorcycle parked outside, but I haven’t touched it for 6 months and I’ll probably sell it. Seems to me that engines bring out the aggressive selfish side of far too many men, me included.



Seems a bit extreme to me.

Lot of speeders so far have clean insurance histories as they have never caused nor been involved in accident. On a positive side - can argue significant number are skilled, adapt to situation, and thus safe. Negatively - too many are complacent and believ accidents happen to other people. :roll:

But am more interested in what made you "see the light" as would like to know if I can use this in my area's current fight with suicidal bikers. Was it a fear of being locked up, or something else?

As all on here know - am Durham based. Overall - we do not have a serious speeding problem as such - and contrary to popular legend - dangerous drivers and deliberate speeding for sake of it gets stamped on here. Lot think we don't have speed cams too. We have a mobile cam van, cops armed with hairdryers and a fleet of marked and unmarked vehicles.

Where we differ from other areas is in how we fund, man, interpret and administrate our enforcement of traffic laws. We like to think we do this fairly and firmly - of course! :wink:

In many respects - deal with situation in similar fashion to elsewhere - with one exception: we focus on all aspects of poor and dangerous driving and not just one! :wink: Not perfect - accidents occur -and each accident is unique to its own set of circumstances - but can say almost all of our biker incidents - rider could not handle the extremity of his speed.

You will probably find that all the so-called petrolheads are full of reasonable, sane people who are not advocating abolishing, traffic law, speed limits, traffic police at all. In fact, all are pro-road safety and dedicated to improving standards for all. As for the alleged "hatred of cyclists" - apart from odd rants regarding pet hates - which a hard core minority are very guilty of - and which get prosecuted if copped in my patch - no signs!

All constructive input from other road users, however they travel, should be welcomed on this site. Because the site has more to do with road safety than simply arguing against the pros and cons of a fixed or badly sited speed camera - which in current deployment would seem to have more cons than pros :wink:

Regarding the "Control the traffic around you" thread - it is really about Observation, Anticpation and deciding how to deal with this without upsetting anyone else on the road. I note, from a lurk, that my young cousin on there tried to point out what this clause really meant. Krissi, by the way - for benefit of the lurkers, does not normally bother with on-line fora - but she was taking a forced holiday having mildly strained herself when she rugby tackled the cyclist who scared her little girl. He refused to give his name and address and cycled off - which was why no action could be taken against him. N Yorks cops did not have anything to go on! :roll:

My Driver attitude notes from Hendon should help point you and other lurkers from C+ in th the right direction. I shall be placing some of the "Observation Notes" on there at some time. Not surprisingly - they are very similar to the advice given in RoadCraft in any case.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 17:36 
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I know someone who used to be (so he says, but in general I find him a trustworthy person, so I have no reason to doubt him) a regular drink-drive offender.

He has now given up his car entirely.

I agree Eurostar's story does sound a bit hard to believe, but it can often be the case that the only way to deal with aberrant behaviour is to give up completely rather than try to moderate it.

This is certainly often true with alcoholism.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 18:10 
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Hmm.. reading his story regarding trying to compete with Eurostar and the rest ... he's right about the addiction and trying to push things that further.

Don't know about Ian and Neil, but most of the bikers we are hunting and only catching when they crash - are aged early 20s , and then we have a gap to 45 plus year olds. Amost like they get married at age 30, settled down and then rekindle their love affair with their fast bike when the kids have left the nest. Perhaps this is a part of the equation. No idea if eurostar's maturity is down to "settling down" with a family urge or whether his self preservation instinct kicked in to tell him that racing trains is wanton recklessness and it ceased to be pleasure.

I have interviewed streams of people in course of my career - who actually ended up in jail because of the evidence against them. I do ask why they want to ride at really silly speeds. One told me he liked seeing everything in a blur :? Another said he got a buzz from feeling "his eyes were gonna explode!" Another like eurostar "wanted to improve a personal best".

I understand the thrill of hooning it up a bit within reason (Have done so myself on training, track and so on) - but shall never understand why the need to drive at speeds where everything is "a blur". Is this the "addictive factor?" Some kind of chemical released into the brain which creates a elated experience? Then as with any "recreational" drug - they want to recreate that sensation?


Perhaps eurostar realised this as you say - realising only salvation is just not to ride and maybe cannot trust himself not to push the envelope in a car. Perhaps he is right to take a break for riding or driving for a while. My advice to him - should circumstance dictate to him that he needs a car or motorbike for job or family needs in the future - would be to book some refresher lessons with an approved riding/driving school, advise the instuctor of past problem so that the experience of past mistakes and current cycling experience foster and maintain a much healtier attitude.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 19:42 
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In Gear wrote:
I have interviewed streams of people in course of my career - who actually ended up in jail because of the evidence against them. I do ask why they want to ride at really silly speeds. One told me he liked seeing everything in a blur :? Another said he got a buzz from feeling "his eyes were gonna explode!" Another like eurostar "wanted to improve a personal best".

I understand the thrill of hooning it up a bit within reason (Have done so myself on training, track and so on) - but shall never understand why the need to drive at speeds where everything is "a blur". Is this the "addictive factor?" Some kind of chemical released into the brain which creates a elated experience? Then as with any "recreational" drug - they want to recreate that sensation?


I think there's a big problem with the "why?" question. The range of absolutely daft answers that people give indicates to me that the real reasons are not known or not easily verbalised.

Speed decisions are frequently made on a subconscious level. There's a bit of the brain plotting a trajectory and computing how that trajectory fits into the risks ahead. A drivers' duty to safety and his self preservation instincts demand that these calculations are used to set speed.

The warp speed loonies seem to do so because they enjoy risk. It provides a thrill.

Have we got any psychologists around to help fill this out a bit?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 20:25 
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Gizmo wrote:
Hmmmm. All sounds a bit Implausible to me.... :roll:


Ah well..sorry "eurostar"...always ready to accept when I am wrong... :?

It has turned out to be an interesting thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 20:37 
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Thought this was going to give me advice on booking Eurostar at first! :lol:

Hi Eurostar!

Hot bed of petrolhead facism? Here? :lol:

Cycling holidays - so relaxing. Do them ourselves within reason. Wife's homeland has some great bike rides. You take the cable car up the mountain and cycle down it.... :lol: Some nice flat paths at the top of some of those mountains and they are ideal. Even my wife does not whinge at those! :roll: (In fairness - she gets out of puff on uphills)

Apart from Ambleside (which is a bad joke.... :roll: ) Cumbria is not too bad for cycling overall either. I find it fairly safe anyway!

eurostar wrote:
No-one's ever suspected me of being a troll before! But I''m not here to start a row. I popped in just to see if this place is the hotbed of motor fascism that some C+ members would have you believe. But you seem quite reasonable people really. It was nice to read Paul Smith's explanation for his famous "controlling the traffic" remark. Put in its correct context it seems perfectly reasonable.


Their lead whinger does indeed have a strange tendency to take everything out of context from what I read over there on a lurk.. Also some very odd ideas on safety... :shock: Like being seen in the dark! :shock:



eurostar wrote:
Your approach to driving sounds much more sensible than mine - I just couldn't stop treating every journey like a race, always trying to set personal bests. I took up racing thinking I might slow down when on the road. And I did my advanced test to see if I could set safety as my goal, instead of speed. But I just got quicker. I even bought a slow bike, but then it became more of a challenge to annoy people on sports bikes by passing them. It really is best for me and other road users if I stick to pedalling!


Ta! Not come across any real idiots here - even basingwerk is OK in small doses! (Just kidding bw :wink: )

Out of interest - how old are you (20s? 30s?), and how long after you original L-test did this start? Sounds like it became an adrenalin charged compulsion. Brain releases chemicals - one of reasons why people get hooked to dangerous fairground rides. Colleague somewhere is treating a bloke who has a compulsive addiction to big dippers - and has been to each one in the world apparently. It is a treatable disorder (long term and requires firm patient motivation) - have you tried talking this through with your doctor?

Does this tendency show in your cycling .. do you, for example, try to race another cyclist or vehicle from traffic lights. Still have a desire to compete or do you think the exercise (gentle exercise) has had a steadying effect. Brain does produce other adrenalin charged chemical - (not going to launch into a medical lecture - already done one today! :wink: - hence not giving out the fancy scientific names of these substances) when indulging in exercise. This is why you get a "feel good /happy" feel from a gentle work out at the gym for example. Perhaps this is the calming effect here. (Admit - do feel relaxed after golf , rugby and a bike ride myself).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 20:43 
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Gizmo wrote:
Ah well..sorry "eurostar"...always ready to accept when I am wrong... :?

It has turned out to be an interesting thread.


It has indeed turned out to be interesting.

I believe I've spotted a couple of inconsistancies that make it likely to be a superior troll, however.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 23:26 
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Hmm, quite a few points:

1) yes I did believe that accidents happened to "other people". I got very confident after I'd had plenty of training. I would still be confident if I went riding today. I could see other people around me making awful mistakes on the road or the track but my near misses went down to almost zero, even when racing. I didn't take what I considered to be reckless risks. I knew I was skilful because I'd done very well at the 'Ring, at race schools, racing proper and even in my advanced test, which I took without any instruction or riding with my local group.

2) what made me see the light? Fear of getting a criminal record and going to jail, where I thought I would be buggered in the showers and get HIV. And not wanting to be on the fringes of society - ordinary speeding offences are committed by respectable people, but when it becomes something you can be jailed for...well, that would have made me an outcast. And basically I'm pro police, pro law and order, and pro people being considerate to each other.

3) cyclists versus members of this forum...I'm not a militant cyclist like a small minority of C+ members. I got back into cycling in July after a 17 year break from it, during which time I was a thoroughgoing petrolhead. I visit C+ a lot, but looking for information rather than arguments. I did go to Critiical Mass the other day though, out of curiosity. Very odd - I felt a bit out of place.

4) motivation/addiction To be honest, I think I have been somewhat addicted to adrenaline. And I've always done things to extremes. I was once diagnosed as bipolar manic/depressive and have to take Prozac. I live in London and used to go out every day and "play in the traffic", despatch rider style, just for the buzz. It's fantastic - almost as good as racing, but it's almost free and it's on my doorstep. I have to try extra hard because the bike I have now is a lot wider than most despatch bikes, but it's very rare that a despatch rider gets away from me. Sorry, should be using the past tense - I haven't ridden the bike since July. I was abroad cycling from July to November and haven't touched the bike since I got back.

I'm 42 now, and never been married. I started driving fast as soon as I passed my test at 18. My Dad would lend me his company car all day provided I went with him to the station and picked him up in the evening. He drove pretty fast on the 15 mile drive to the station. Overtaking opportunities were fleeting and had to be grabbed within nanoseconds. I quickly got faster than him and then bought a motorbike.

I've never found there's much adrenaline in cycling except on big descents. I got a notable high once on Alpe D'Huez when I set off at the back of a group of 200 cyclists and passed them all by outbraking them into hairpins. Ahead of them were a bunch of motorcycles and I passed them too, reaching the bottom of the mountain several minutes ahead of everyone. When I unclipped and tried to walk I had to sit down - my knees were like jelly! I always try to beat other cyclists, but I'm not fit enough yet. Hoping to improve a great deal though - and I have a fantastic new bike on order, so I won't be able to blame the equipment any more!


5) A clever troll?? Come on then, what are these inconsistencies!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 23:28 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Gizmo wrote:
Ah well..sorry "eurostar"...always ready to accept when I am wrong... :?

It has turned out to be an interesting thread.


It has indeed turned out to be interesting.

I believe I've spotted a couple of inconsistancies that make it likely to be a superior troll, however.


Oh dear, such cynicism. Are we so unused to the concept of humility and admission of previous errors, that it must be assumed that the guy is pulling our legs?


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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
It has indeed turned out to be interesting.

I believe I've spotted a couple of inconsistancies that make it likely to be a superior troll, however.


Oh dear, such cynicism. Are we so unused to the concept of humility and admission of previous errors, that it must be assumed that the guy is pulling our legs?


No, it isn't that.

But it has given me the clue required to start to find the jigsaw puzzle piece that links this: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/why.html to this: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1033

It's suddenly clear as crystal to me that our nutty bikers set high speeds for the arousal hit. Some part of the subconscious MUST assess the risk otherwise they wouldn't get the hit. Their risk taking behaviour isn't because they don't care about the risk - quite the opposite. The risk is stimulating.

But we need two measures of risk to complete the picture, and they must be assessed differently. The first is perceived risk - the feeling of speed. The second is the real risk of crashing.

I guess the thrill seekers are often pretty skilled types who have pretty good reason for believing they won't crash. Notice how they must be setting perceived risk high while setting the real risk of crashing low?

This is getting really really interesting...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 01:22 
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This "speed addiction" thing reminded me of that mpeg video that shows a biker's-eye-view of some chap called Pascal racing around the Paris periferique... absolutely amazing.
I think that it's discussed and linked to somewhere else on this forum, but for convenience I've added another link below. But be warned, the file is many MB big (my unpacked version is 57MB!).

http://www.sportbikez.net/video/5


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 02:02 
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eurostar wrote:
Hmm, quite a few points:

1) yes I did believe that accidents happened to "other people". I got very confident after I'd had plenty of training. I would still be confident if I went riding today. I could see other people around me making awful mistakes on the road or the track but my near misses went down to almost zero, even when racing. I didn't take what I considered to be reckless risks. I knew I was skilful because I'd done very well at the 'Ring, at race schools, racing proper and even in my advanced test, which I took without any instruction or riding with my local group.


Ah! Racing requires good car control skills. Think I mentioned on my "attitude" series in the "Improvement" section here that racing drivers require a knowledge of what is happening to their cars (the "feel") and then convey this to the engineers. Bit like a jockey and trainer with a race horse and - no doubt - on a bicycle with gears, brakes and worn chains in a race... :wink: (well trying to think "bikey" :wink: )
So then - engineers (and trainers in the case of the horse) tweek things to aid performance on track.

Also in a race - you conform to the track rules - non compliance costs championship points .

Does this help on the public roads?

Understanding the car's feel helps - but the real skills, of course, are COAST ones, where C stands for consideration, courtesy and concentration. But have a read through the thread on"attitude" here - may help you as cyclist and if you returned to using your bike.

eurostar wrote:
2) what made me see the light? Fear of getting a criminal record and going to jail, where I thought I would be buggered in the showers and get HIV. And not wanting to be on the fringes of society - ordinary speeding offences are committed by respectable people, but when it becomes something you can be jailed for...well, that would have made me an outcast. And basically I'm pro police, pro law and order, and pro people being considerate to each other.


Glad to hear that some people are deterred by jail. It can be a possibility in some cases. Depends on the mags and quality of lawyers as to jail term or mega-fine and long ban - and naturally on the amount of the speed. Certainly extreme cases end up that way. As for the HIV danger - Mad Doc is the chap to comment on that....he deals in lurgies.

eurostar wrote:
3) cyclists versus members of this forum...I'm not a militant cyclist like a small minority of C+ members.


Should no be issue of "cyclists v motorists", with claims that people would ride bikes if we all gave up motor vehicles Is a universal road safety issue.

Know it is a minority on that site in any case. They do their cause a great disservice with some of the rubbish spouted on there. Not everyone wants to ride a bike, nor do they all want to go for walks in the countryside. Car or bus to get about suits the majority. No amount of squabbling is going to change this.


eurostar wrote:
I got back into cycling in July after a 17 year break from it, during which time I was a thoroughgoing petrolhead. I visit C+ a lot, but looking for information rather than arguments. I did go to Critiical Mass the other day though, out of curiosity. Very odd - I felt a bit out of place.


We usually visit the bits which give information about bikes, equipment and tour ideas. My own wife does post very occasionally on there herself in Tour and Training sections - but kept distance from Nice Tame Krissi. :lol: In fact - my wife never even reads the "rowdy section" as she calls it because she finds it depressing.

eurostar wrote:
4) motivation/addiction To be honest, I think I have been somewhat addicted to adrenaline. And I've always done things to extremes. I was once diagnosed as bipolar manic/depressive and have to take Prozac. I live in London and used to go out every day and "play in the traffic", despatch rider style, just for the buzz. It's fantastic - almost as good as racing, but it's almost free and it's on my doorstep. I have to try extra hard because the bike I have now is a lot wider than most despatch bikes, but it's very rare that a despatch rider gets away from me. Sorry, should be using the past tense - I haven't ridden the bike since July. I was abroad cycling from July to November and haven't touched the bike since I got back.


Mad Doc can answer you better than me on this one. Sounds like you are one extreme to another.

eurostar wrote:
I'm 42 now, and never been married. I started driving fast as soon as I passed my test at 18. My Dad would lend me his company car all day provided I went with him to the station and picked him up in the evening. He drove pretty fast on the 15 mile drive to the station. Overtaking opportunities were fleeting and had to be grabbed within nanoseconds. I quickly got faster than him and then bought a motorbike.


Ah! Dad set an example of fast driving. Did he always do this? Take chances and perhaps instil this into you as "fun"? And sounds like there was some desire to outdo your father as well. Been there with my own Dad and recently had to take my own son to task over some concerning signs. Had to remind him that sometimes I drive well and frighteningly well over the speed limit - but only when at work! :lol: And that only if he decides to follow me into the Force - will he be able to do likewise! :roll:


Kids- eh! :roll:

eurostar wrote:
I've never found there's much adrenaline in cycling except on big descents. I got a notable high once on Alpe D'Huez when I set off at the back of a group of 200 cyclists and passed them all by outbraking them into hairpins


. Ahead of them were a bunch of motorcycles and I passed them too, reaching the bottom of the mountain several minutes ahead of everyone. When I unclipped and tried to walk I had to sit down - my knees were like jelly! I always try to beat other cyclists, but I'm not fit enough yet. Hoping to improve a great deal though - and I have a fantastic new bike on order, so I won't be able to blame the equipment any more!


So still got the racing bug! :lol: Heaven help us when you are fit! :roll: :twisted:

You would like North East Switzerland where the mad Swiss hail from. There are some really evil descents around there - for a cyclist - and no danger from cars because these lanes are not suitable for motor vehicles :lol: 8-) .


Then of course - according to our Nice Tame Krissi - there's always Appletreewick ...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:20 
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Seems a bit extreme to me.


A biker giving up his bike, i do not think so :!:

Quote:
administrate our enforcement of traffic laws. We like to think we do this fairly and firmly - of course! :wink:


Fairly :?: :evil:

You are having a giggle :!:

When was the last time you prosecuted a driver for causing an accident :?:
Only drivers suspected of going to cause an accident, are dealt with on our roads, how safe they are driving, does not come into consideration.

How many pedestrian's does your force prosecute for indangering motorists, by stepping/running out into the road.
How many cyclist are prosecuted for reckless riding, whom have no understanding or regard for the highway code :?:

Motorists are expected to reach a standard and a certain age before they are allowed to drive on our roads, except m/ways of course, where NO training is required. Yet cyclist's of any age or ability are permitted to ride our roads at they choose.

All seems pretty stacked one sided to me :!:

Quote:
Not perfect - accidents occur


As a result of driver error, which should be punished under the law. Yet police & Government only choose to punish drivers, they think might cause an accident.

Quote:
but can say almost all of our biker incidents - rider could not handle the extremity of his speed.


It is all the biker's fault, how do you come to that conclusion :?:

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