Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Mon Sep 21, 2020 16:35

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 210 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 17:50 
Offline
Banned
Banned

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:47
Posts: 2291
Gatsobait wrote:
Now I know one response to this is "what if someone doesn't exercise proper care when crossing the road". Well, sounds a bit cruel, but tough shit.


But it's not just tough shit, though, is it? It's Camera time! It's Pelican Crossing time! It's Hump time! It's Close One Lane and Make The Other One Way time! It's Put In Trams time! In other words, it's tough shit for everybody.

_________________
I stole this .sig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 18:16 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
I think you and I look at the hazards on the road in very different ways. You look at it as an entirely man made situation, and therefore those that creat it should be responsible for modifying it.


That's right. The great giveaway is that you cannot walk anywhere on the streets without stopping, looking right and left, and giving way to cars when crossing roads.
Theoretically, yes. See my previosu post about Wimbledon station.

basingwerk wrote:
Get that - the pavements do not cross the roads, do they? The roads chop through the pavements, straight through, unimpeded by the possible passage of walkers.
With the exception of foot bridges and tunnels which are completley unaffected by the road layout or what's currently using it. Arguably same can be said for pedestrian controlled lights.

And "chopping" thorugh is rather an inappropriate and emotive term don't you think. It's not like the norm is that pavements were pre-existing and ran perpendicular to where the road "chopped" thorugh it. The pavements have always been alongside roads. Not just modern roads either. Wheeled transport goes back to biblical times, and I'm sure that pedestrians walked to one side or other of the cart tracks rather than constantly crossing in front of them. Except of course where Wimbledon station stood about 3000 years ago where I'm certain some twat was run down by a yak because he was paying too much attention to his copy of the Daily Papyrus. :twisted: Sorry, i digress. Point is roads do not chop through pavements, any more than they chop through other roads at junctions.

Sorry, do go on.

basingwerk wrote:
Walkers MUST wait!
They need not do so necessarily. As i said above, in many places there are facilities for them to make their way over or under the road so avoiding any conflict with traffic. In many others they can press a button, and after a brief while they will have made the cars wait. Or at zebras, which are my least favourite for reasons of pedestrian safety, it is incumbent on drivers to give way - or in other words the mere presence of a pedestrian makes me wait while I'm in my car.

Stop acting like all this waiting goes only one way. It doesn't. Sometimes pedstrians wait for drivers. Sometimes drivers wait for pedestrians. And what's the big deal anyway? As i driver i don't get all bent out of shape when a pedestrian forces me to wait because he's changed the lights to red. No worries.

I'm a little worried about the idea of all these impatient pedestrians getting wound up with all this waiting we're making them do. perhaps they ought to get themselves into cars and learn a little patience. :P :twisted: :P :twisted: :P :twisted: :P :twisted:

basingwerk wrote:
Walkers wait because they have given up their authority on the streets, and cars processed unimpeded by walkways, because they have been allowed to claim that authority.
What authority? Modern roas are designed for cars, not for pedestrians. The idea that pedestrians have given up rights or authority over modern roads is laughable - they never had it in the first place. Even if we were to talk about ancient roads and how it was mainly foot traffic back then, which we're not, they still never had any divine right to the road. Footpaths, yes. But roads have always been shared.

basingwerk wrote:
They have been allowed to do that because they are dangerous and walkers have given them a wide berth, and in doing so, they have lost their rights to walk.
Allowed to do that? Lost their rights to walk? Again, this speaks of some divine right that never existed. Let's get this straight. Feet have indeed been around longer than wheels, and on those first paths made by feet for feet (or at least their decendants) we can rightly say that wheels don't have a place. Maybe that's why cycling on the pavement is a no-no. :mrgreen: But then came the wheel, and roads came along shortly after to make life easier for the wheel users. And a good solution it was too. Much better for medeieval peasants to know that carts stick to certain routes instead of wandering all over the place. Not that different from today really.

I reiterate. Roads are for vehciles. Pavements are for walkers. The latter can use the roads too, but must do so carefully and responsibly.

Quote:
="basingwerk"]Now, finally, the doors of perception are open and, in city centres and towns, cars are finally having their priority stripped away from them, and not before time. Yes, finally we might have equal responsibly and equal rights.
Do what? We can attempt to legislate rights and responsibilities but life will have other ideas. Better that legislation reflects the harsh realities rather than ivory tower ideals. As for pedestrianising town centres, frankly I don't see what that's got to do with this at all. To use my earlier analogy, we're draining the waters that the sharks live in, reclaiming it as land and forcing the sharks to go elsewhere. That doesn't absolve swimmers of the responsibility to take care when swimming where the water remains. If they fail to take precautions they remain at risk of being eaten.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 18:29 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
And, Basingwerk, just to add to Gatsobait's excellent points...

Even if we decided to have a radical rethink about road as shared spaces and ban cars from many places, we'd STILL have to have a cooperative system for managing the remaining shared spaces.

In fact, the vast majority of spaces are going to be shared spaces for the foreseeable future. We have to manage behaviours in those shared spaces and that means expecting equal standards of responsibility from all classes of road user.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 18:30 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Now I know one response to this is "what if someone doesn't exercise proper care when crossing the road". Well, sounds a bit cruel, but tough shit.


But it's not just tough shit, though, is it? It's Camera time! It's Pelican Crossing time! It's Hump time! It's Close One Lane and Make The Other One Way time! It's Put In Trams time! In other words, it's tough shit for everybody.
Very sorry. I think I put that point poorly. Allow me to expand a bit.

What I meant by it is that life will dole out it's own form of punishment to the unwary. We can put in whatever we want in the way of rules, or street funtiure, or traffic calming, or signs, or loaded insurance premiums. It won't change a thing where it matters most, and that is that if i walk out in front of a car it's going to bloody hurt. My error of judgement, my lapse of concentration... my responsibility for the consequences... my pain and suffering, perhaps even my death. That's the harsh reality. We can pass a law that makes the driver to blame, but it would be entirely artifiical and really reduces fault to liability. In such a situation my own neglignece would have been the cause, and Life itself will become judge and jury. If my sentence is suspension of breathing rights, that's tough shit.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:08 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
Look, we only have 10,000 days left if we carry on like this. People will have plenty of time to disagee with me when they are dead. And it won't be long, judging by this report on CO2. And tailpipes are only one of the things wrong with cars.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

But CO2 only absorbs particular wavelengths of radiated heat.

And CO2 is already absorbing all of those already.

So how is any increase in CO2 going to cause any more warming?

basingwerk wrote:
You talk of my true colours, and you use safety talk, but somehow I can't rid myself of the notion that, underneath all this, the goal is faster driving.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You talk about safety, but somehow I can't rid myself of the notion that, underneath all this talk about reducing CO2, there has to be a real goal that no one is admitting to.

Fancy giving us a clue as to what the true agenda is?

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:16 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
All road users show due respect for other persons.

Yes, I can dig that idea. But in reality, children pedestrians do not have equal power of death as drivers, and are not encased in steel.

So what?

And who says so?

Firstly, I can drive into a child and kill it.

However a child can run in front of me, cause me to "Think Child" and swerve.

Into a bus queue of schoolkids, then the bus stop, which falls across the road, causing a coach trip of OAP's to career through a sensory garden for the blind before swerving back onto the road, onto a bridge, off it onto a railway track, causing a passenger express to jump the rails into the river, sinking a pleasure cruise of mother and toddlers.

Secondly, why are you allowing a child on the roads unsupervised in your version of utopia?

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:22 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
bogush wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
bogush wrote:
rigpig wrote:
.....Cognitive

The corollary is that most people actually drive as well as you do, or at least as well as you think you do.

You are confused between discussing the matter, and discussing ourselves. BTW: Are you accusing me of thinking I am a good driver!

Any reason why you chose to selectively "quote":

Two reasons. First, it is all in the posts above, and second, to spotlight your "cognitive dissonance" distraction.


So, still trying to distract from:

bogush wrote:
rigpig wrote:
.....Cognitive Dissonance occurs when a person encounters a situation about which he/she knows certain things to be factually correct, but makes a mental discconect between those facts and their own actions relating towards them........

.......we only really notice people doing things wrong, tailgating, using their mobile, speeding etc. Thus we build up this impression that we aren't a stu[p]id as those other idiots, numpties etc, therefore we must be a better driver than they are, and as there are so many of them, we must be better than average! A conveninet self-assessment based on subjective bias.

The corollary is that most people actually drive as well as you do, or at least as well as you think you do.

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:27 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
All road users show due respect for other persons.

Yes, I can dig that idea. But in reality, children pedestrians do not have equal power of death as drivers, and are not encased in steel.

And your point is?

That you run red lights across the path of HGV's, dodge round the barriers on level crossings, and play chicken on runways expecting the pilot to take responsibility for your safety.

Do you actually have an argument?

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:38 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
Children cannot called to account for accidents that have happened to them.

So you're the one encouraging kids to "reclaim" the streets because the driver is responsible for their safety and and no one can touch them for jaywalking!

And people think that using child soldiers and even child suicide bombers is immoral!


basingwerk wrote:
All walkers are interested in self preservation,

Errrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm.

Wot?

Like the jaywalkers and kids above playing chicken?

Like the 85% of pedestrian fatalities responsible for their own deaths?

You clearly don't drive if you really believe that!

Or you drive with your eyes closed and judge the rest of us by your own standards.

basingwerk wrote:
whereas all drivers are not necessarily that interested in walkers' preservation, because they don't have to be.

You might think that it's normal to drive around thinking it's OK to run that pedestrian down because I'm in a steel box and it will hurt him more than it hurts me.

But there are other implications to hitting them that cause serious harm to the driver.

Why is it that you are unable to think forward or anticipate far enough ahead to figure this out for yourself?

No wonder you failed your driving test.

Am I getting warm?

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 23:58 
Offline
Suspended
Suspended

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 21:48
Posts: 169
Location: Nottingham
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
I think you and I look at the hazards on the road in very different ways. You look at it as an entirely man made situation, and therefore those that creat it should be responsible for modifying it.

That's right. The great giveaway is that you cannot walk anywhere on the streets without stopping, looking right and left, and giving way to cars when crossing roads. Get that - the pavements do not cross the roads, do they? The roads chop through the pavements, straight through, unimpeded by the possible passage of walkers. Walkers MUST wait! Walkers wait because they have given up their authority on the streets, and cars processed unimpeded by walkways, because they have been allowed to claim that authority. They have been allowed to do that because they are dangerous and walkers have given them a wide berth, and in doing so, they have lost their rights to walk. Now, finally, the doors of perception are open and, in city centres and towns, cars are finally having their priority stripped away from them, and not before time. Yes, finally we might have equal responsibly and equal rights.................................

Tell that to the canals and railways.

I suppose you could walk on water before the canals came along and you were forced to give up "your right" to do so.

By the way, how would your argument go before the days of horseless car-riages?

basingwerk BC (Before Cars) wrote:
That's right. The great giveaway is that you cannot walk anywhere on the streets without stopping, looking right and left, and giving way to carriages when crossing roads. Get that - the pavements do not cross the roads, do they? The roads chop through the pavements, straight through, unimpeded by the possible passage of walkers. Walkers MUST wait! Walkers wait because they have given up their authority on the streets, and carriages processed unimpeded by walkways, because they have been allowed to claim that authority. They have been allowed to do that because they are dangerous and walkers have given them a wide berth, and in doing so, they have lost their rights to walk. Now, finally, the doors of perception are open and, in city centres and towns, carriages are finally having their priority stripped away from them, and not before time. Yes, finally we might have equal responsibly and equal rights.................................

_________________
http://www.itsyourduty.org.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 02:15 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
Have just skimmed through this thread very quickly.

Number of points raised:

On the topic of parking on pavements - it does depend on the road and circumstance, apermits and normal practice in the area. I can think of a number of residential roads where this appears to be the practice and widely accepted by the neighbourhead and the authorities.

We did see cars parking with two wheels on a pavement in the 70s. I was at school at the time and remember seeing this occur - and notably in the same roads as they do now.

Then I think

basingmate wrote:

Pavements do not cross roads. Roads cross pavements!"


They are called "Junctions"; "crossroads" and the pavement ends in a kerb and people are supposed to stop at the kerb and look and listen for traffic! If they have kids - then rules about holding hands, using reins, and a good old fashioned dollop of discipline, guidance and parenting shoud be encouraged as normal again! There seems to be a very daft attitude about parenting. My wife heard one parent tell her screaming child in a sicky sweet voice that "You are making Mummy very sad, Chloe!" or some trendy name. Child carries on. Wildy version - in blunt, firm directness was more of counting to three and hand will meet with a backside. For some reason - always worked - never been carried out!

But now - if we tap our kids and the skin turns slightly pink - we can get arrested over it. This pinkness will depend on individual reaction as well - some skins redden more easily than others. The law effectively takes away a sanction which you could threaten as ultimate sanction - but never actually carry out. But a daft and confusing law in any case.

The same daftness applies to hunting. A lot of loopholes and how could you prove otherwise short of chucking police at the hunts on the off chancethey may prove the fox happened by chance on the "innocent chasing of a tub of lard posing as a fox" (police who should be trying to find the rapist, burglar, hit and run driver)

We have subways and bridges. But these attract the anti-social yobs and we have a perceived danger which permeates through to parental fears over the school run issues. Even seasoned cyclists think twice about using these subways. Nothing new - yobs have always congregated in these areas - but we rarely see cameras monitoring bad behaviour in these subways. - possibly because the camera would be vandalised in any case.

But these are social and criminal problems which the police should be targetting instead of soft targets such as investigating themselves over free mugs of tea at a service station; wasting resources to bring a apple muncher to justice; prosecuting a policeman for being a bit liberal with his baton and CS spray when stopping a thug from assaulting a woman - and failing to catch 75% of all criminals. In fact, 99% of all prosecutions fail before they get to court according to latest Home Office figures and dection rates are at an all time low.

So - has a speed camera really freed up police time to reslove other issues. The figures reporting increases in violent crimes, despite overall average drop of just 6% - certainly does not look like a resounding success to me!

You will come back with electronic tagging and computer can identify these criminals.

Any criminal worthy of the title criminal will not slip through the net. In the meantime civil liberties and personal freedoms will take on an Orwellian nature - and we have already debated the "those with nothing to fear" argument. Fine - so long as the government remains democratic and benign. But we have a government which practiases nightmare politics with bucket loads of whitewash and a spin tactic which would make Nazi propaganda machine look amateurish by comparison!

As for the people in cars roaring through villages and causing noise pollution. Same applies to trains. Once stayed in a hotel in the Italian Riviera...nice hotel but was close to the railway line. All houses were on account of the Med being to the immediate South. After the first night -it did not bother us. Same applies to cars - which are not as noisy as those trains were.

I think Gatosbait has already mentioned that idiots will be idiots no matter hwo they travel. You see it all the time - they hurtlein to car parks, park up and j-walk into the path of other cars, or stop the car and open the driver's door without looking to see if anyone might be passing,

They come up to Cumbria, or the the Yorkshire pair ranted - to the Dales for a day or two of walking and cycling. Most belong to the normal courteous brand of nature lover. Others, unfortunately, chuck litter around, and walk and ride their bicycles around with the same lack of consideration as they drove to get to the tourist car parks. :roll:

These are the ones who ironically never get pinged by Steve's vans and yet I would bet they are the catalyst in most incidents in some way.

My children receive lessons in "Citizenship" at school. Basically, this appears to tell them what their legal rights are. It does not seem to enhance and reinforce the ethical and moral fibre I have tried to instil in them. Old fashioned concepts such as courtesy and manners do not seem to feature at all in this concept of the learner-centred schooling in which the child is always right. :roll:

This insistence that the child is always right and the spin of political correctness, nightmare poliitics, nanny state rulings apears to be working as a solvent on our social glue!

Not going to be easy to get a new type of glue to fix it either :roll:

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !

But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:16 
Offline
Banned
Banned

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:47
Posts: 2291
SafeSpeed wrote:
In fact, the vast majority of spaces are going to be shared spaces for the foreseeable future. We have to manage behaviours in those shared spaces and that means expecting equal standards of responsibility from all classes of road user.


We are most concerned with :

a) protecting pedestrians from cars,
b) protecting car drivers from other cars and
c) protecting drivers from their own cars!

In all cases, we are protecting people from cars! There is a problem managing cars because a) they are powerfully dangerous b) hard to control/easy to crash and c) engenderer a feeling of territorialism in male drivers, d) noisy e) polluting f) visually unpleasant g) space and resource consuming etc. etc, and it’s no use pushing that over to the pedestrians, who (like drivers) are just monkeys!

Unfortunately, for my argument, cars are necessary despite all these disadvantages, so we must use them sparingly, safely, and considerately especially when in conjunction with other road users.

By the way, why is bogush suspended? I knew I was being slightly provocative about the “reclaim the pavements” thing, and I have been keeping my head down while he thrashed his keyboard into a froth as a result of that, but what specific misdemeanour did he make that was over the line?

Also, while I’m in the mood for asking questions, why is that car drivers treat themselves so badly as a matter of routine (cutting up, tailgating, rude gestures, pulling out, inconsideration, light flashing/horn blowing/fist shaking, too fast for conditions, undertaking etc. etc) yet you all band together nicely here on SafeSpeed’s site? How come you can be so horrid to each other all the time, yet you all turn into Saints when you post here – what gives, fellers?

_________________
I stole this .sig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:24 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
basingwerk wrote:
Also, while I’m in the mood for asking questions, why is that car drivers treat themselves so badly as a matter of routine (cutting up, tailgating, rude gestures, pulling out, inconsideration, light flashing/horn blowing/fist shaking, too fast for conditions, undertaking etc. etc) yet you all band together nicely here on SafeSpeed’s site? How come you can be so horrid to each other all the time, yet you all turn into Saints when you post here – what gives, fellers?

Ah yes, but we're the car drivers who don't behave like that (and also, in most cases, drive carefully and considerately along narrow village streets, just like you want us to) :D

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:56 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
basingwerk wrote:
We are most concerned with :
a) protecting pedestrians from cars,
b) protecting car drivers from other cars and
c) protecting drivers from their own cars!
In all cases, we are protecting people from cars!

Might be your main concern, but I feel it falls short of what's needed. IMO it's simpler and more complex at the same time. We should be most concerned with getting all road users to act in a way that protect both themselves and those in the vicinity.

If my safety as a pedestrian was made entirely the responsibility of passing drivers I'd be very worried. Well, actually I wouldn't since I'd act the same way I do now and take responsibility myself. Otherwise it would pass from one driver to another from minute to minute, so my level of safety would boil down to which of those drivers was least able :shock: . In a very practical sense this is in fact already true, and is a very strong reason for us all as individuals to take responsibility for our own safety and act accordingly. Hence, as I've said before, regardless of where legal responsibility lies the actual responsibility for my safety as a pedestrian will always be mine and mine alone. Even though walking along by the road is a pretty innocuous activity I apply the same attitude as I would to an obviously risky activity like rock climbing or being near the speakers at an Iron Maiden concert. Put bluntly, I can never rely on anyone else to watch my arse with the same level of attention as I'm prepared to put into it.

basingwerk wrote:
There is a problem managing cars because a) they are powerfully dangerous b) hard to control/easy to crash and c) engenderer a feeling of territorialism in male drivers, d) noisy e) polluting f) visually unpleasant g) space and resource consuming etc. etc, and it?s no use pushing that over to the pedestrians, who (like drivers) are just monkeys!
Okay, first off and most predictably I dispute points b), c) and f), and would suggest that a), d), e) and g) are qualified.

If cars were as easy to crash as you suggest there we all ought to be crashing much more often. In fact crashes are actually quite rare, so rare in fact that there are plenty of people who have never had one. I'm not convinced about this territorialism thing either. I suspect the majority of drivers, even male drivers, are not affected in any great way. The minority who are territorial in the car... well, is it the car making them territorial or are they like that all the time? If they hog the TV remote a lot, or have ever said "are you looking at my pint/did you spill my bird" to someone in a bar I'd say it's the latter. As for visually unpleasant, well this is rather personal but I'm not at all fond of the current crop of big-arse Renault Migraines or anything that resembles a filing cabinet on a skateboard, but there are plenty of cars that are pleasant to look at. Some I'd consider almost as works of art in steel, plastic and recently carbon. If money was no object I'd have a 550 Maranello just to look at - nothing to do with power, in fact it woudn't really need an engine. <sigh> and the chances of that happening 8-) Anyhow, what you mean is just that cars don't flick your switch. That's okay, but is very subjective. My wife loves Dali, my aunt hates Dali. You think cars are ugly, I think many are beautiful. All pretty irrelevant when we're talking about road safety, unless you can suggest an example of a car so supremely ugly that it causes pedestrians to stampede across motorways to get away from it. :lol: Noisy and polluting applies rather more to older cars than newer ones, and resource consuming is almost the same thing. It's true they take up space, but whether that's really a problem depends entirely on how and where. And finally, putting first last, powerfully dangerous, yes, but only in the wrong hands. Used sensibly and correctly they really are quite safe.

basingwerk wrote:
...and it?s no use pushing that over to the pedestrians, who (like drivers) are just monkeys!
It's not pushing responsibility onto pedestrians as that implies moving it from where it is now. Quite the opposite in fact. Pedestrians have always had the responsibility. Again, I'm thinking only about rules of life, not rules of law. Life says that if someone walks off the pavement onto the road without looking, and an artic is coming his way at the time, he's likely to end up as a sticky veneer on the tarmac. We could create legislation that would automatically hold the driver responsible, but that would not change the fact that the pedestrian's actions and negligence determined his fate.

basingwerk wrote:
Also, while I?m in the mood for asking questions, why is that car drivers treat themselves so badly as a matter of routine (cutting up, tailgating, rude gestures, pulling out, inconsideration, light flashing/horn blowing/fist shaking, too fast for conditions, undertaking etc. etc) yet you all band together nicely here on SafeSpeed?s site? How come you can be so horrid to each other all the time, yet you all turn into Saints when you post here ? what gives, fellers?
Full circle and kind of back to social glue I think. It's not a car thing or a transport thing, but a society thing I reckon. As a whole we're just more impatient than we were a few years ago. The behaviour you mention is just the car version of shouting at some poor minimum wage kid in a shop because they're out of stock of something, or getting drunk on a plane and hassling the cabin crew and other passengers, or supermarket trolley rage :roll: , and so on and so on. For some reason society has come to expect instant gratification, but unfortunately life often fails to deliver. When that happens people get frustrated and angry, and more and more often react in that other modern style - find someone to blame and, if possible, sue. :wink: Strange one, that. People seem to be so keen on finding out who to blame for the balls up that solving the problem often gets forgotten about.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 13:08 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
basingwerk wrote:
By the way, why is bogush suspended?


He made a series of confrontational and acidic posts that caused me to receive three complaints by PM. I PM'd him and asked him to take it easy.

He replied by PM ignoring my point and continued with confrontational posts.

I PM'd him again, politely asking him to take a week off from posting while I tried to figure out how to manage the problem.

He replied in acidic style in the forums. That was the last straw for me.

It's a bugger. I don't know what else I could have done, and I wasted well over three hours on it in total.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 13:08 
Offline
Banned
Banned

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:47
Posts: 2291
Gatsobait wrote:
Wheeled transport goes back to biblical times, and I'm sure that pedestrians walked to one side or other of the cart tracks rather than constantly crossing in front of them. Except of course where Wimbledon station stood about 3000 years ago where I'm certain some twat was run down by a yak because he was paying too much attention to his copy of the Daily Papyrus. :twisted:


Look, I’m only doing a ‘bogush’ and presenting a contrarian case here to see if it can hold any water. Yes, that’s how it played out though history. I’m high up on a heavy cart with yaks, so get out of the way or be crushed! Only now, it’s playing out as ‘I’m walking and I can’t wait for all those cars to get out of my way, so I’ll vote to get rid of all that by putting in charges, lights, crossings, barriers, bus lanes, humps, cameras, and whatnot, and the car drivers can walk or get the bus too, which is good for them if it increases the total bandwidth and safety of the system, and cuts down smoke and noise’.

Gatsobait wrote:
Sorry, i digress. Point is roads do not chop through pavements, any more than they chop through other roads at junctions.

Gatsobait wrote:
there are facilities for them to make their way over or under the road so avoiding any conflict with traffic


The pavements stop at the corners - the road is the constant, crossing facilities are the exception.

Gatsobait wrote:
a brief while


Why don’t the lights change the instant I press the button?

Gatsobait wrote:
Stop acting like all this waiting goes only one way. It doesn't. Sometimes pedstrians wait for drivers. Sometimes drivers wait for pedestrians. And what's the big deal anyway? As i driver i don't get all bent out of shape when a pedestrian forces me to wait because he's changed the lights to red. No worries.


Pedestrian lights are green for cars more than they are green for pedestrians. In fact, unless a pedestrian presses the button, strangely they are permanently green for cars. They could be reversed, so that they are always green for pedestrians. Then, when a car comes along, the car waits for three minutes, then they go green for the car for 5 seconds, then back to red for the car in case some more pedestrians come!

Gatsobait wrote:
What authority? Modern roads are designed for cars, not for pedestrians. The idea that pedestrians have given up rights or authority over modern roads is laughable - they never had it in the first place.


The problem is that modern roads are designed for cars, for pedestrians.

Gatsobait wrote:
Lost their rights to walk? Again, this speaks of some divine right that never existed. Let's get this straight. Feet have indeed been around longer than wheels, and on those first paths made by feet for feet (or at least their descendants) we can rightly say that wheels don't have a place. Maybe that's why cycling on the pavement is a no-no. :mrgreen: But then came the wheel, and roads came along shortly after to make life easier for the wheel users. And a good solution it was too. Much better for medieval peasants to know that carts stick to certain routes instead of wandering all over the place. Not that different from today really.


On what ground - might is right? No way!

Gatsobait wrote:
I reiterate. Roads are for vehicles. Pavements are for walkers. The latter can use the roads too, but must do so carefully and responsibly.


The roads should stop to allow the pavements to cross.

Gatsobait wrote:
As for pedestriansing town centres, frankly I don't see what that's got to do with this at all.


The natural mode of transport tight communities is foot. Cars are dangerous intrusions, so limits are applied to them to make them safer.

_________________
I stole this .sig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 14:50 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
basingwerk wrote:
Yes, that?s how it played out though history. I?m high up on a heavy cart with yaks, so get out of the way or be crushed! Only now, it?s playing out as ?I?m walking and I can?t wait for all those cars to get out of my way, so I?ll vote to get rid of all that by putting in charges, lights, crossings, barriers, bus lanes, humps, cameras, and whatnot, and the car drivers can walk or get the bus too, which is good for them if it increases the total bandwidth and safety of the system, and cuts down smoke and noise?.
I still think you're looking at it from the wrong direction. I've been talking about self preservation actions/attitudes on the part of the pedestrian. Here, you are talking about selfish actions/attitudes on the part of the yak carter. Or more recently the motorist. Now I think about it the two are actually co-operating attitudes, not competing ones. Although you make the yak carter sound a bit of a bastard with "get out of the way or be crushed" it's in his interest not to run over a peasant. Delays, aggro, risk of irate fellow peasants turning up with scythes and so on. Equally it's in the interest of the peasant not to be run over, for reasons I think we don't have to go into.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Sorry, i digress. Point is roads do not chop through pavements, any more than they chop through other roads at junctions.

Gatsobait wrote:
there are facilities for them to make their way over or under the road so avoiding any conflict with traffic


The pavements stop at the corners - the road is the constant, crossing facilities are the exception.
I think the kerbs really prevent it being the other way round given the shape of the wheel. :mrgreen: Sure, kerbs wouldn't be a problem if we ditched wheeled transport in favour of hovercraft, but given how hovercraft corner... :shock: - no thanks.

Even ignoring that for the moment, from a practical point of view it has to be the way it is. Consider a T junction - as things are there the road layout forms three virtual barriers to foot traffic, a maximum of one of which is going to be faced by any single pedestrian when passing through the junction. In fact half the time there will be no barrier at all (turning left from the left hand side pavement, ditto r/h side, and walking along the section of pavement that isn't interrupted by the joining road). Do it the other way round and there would still be three virtual barriers, but this time they would be faced by vehicles. What's different is that the vehicles will all face TWO of the three barriers, and this will happen to each and every vehicle passing through the junction - no exceptions. This is unavoidable because in the space between buildings vehicles go down the middle and pedestrians go down the edge. That's problem no. 1. Now bearing in mind that vehicles are larger than pedestrians, making them give way to one pedestrian could cause them to block another, especially a particularly large vehicle like a bus or lorry. That's problem no. 2. The only solution to these problems that I can think of is to rip up all adjoining roads and pavements, and relay the whole shooting match with the road surface up against shop doorways and a single double widthe pavement running down the middle. Er, hang on... that leaves me in the middle of the road when I want to look in the shop window, and poor granny is housebound now the edge of the carriageway is up against her garden gate. :( On the plus side you'd need never again worry about bad overtaking manoeuvres. :wink:

basingwerk wrote:
Why don?t the lights change the instant I press the button?
And I was just talking about instant gratification in my last post. :D Actually the crossing between the new and old buildings of my school used to change really quick, possibly because the installers knew it would be used by a bunch of kids every 40 minutes as well as anyone else who happened to show up. But normally they don't change the instant you press the button for the same reason they don't go red again as soon as a car comes. In both cases that particular bit of road is regarded as being in use by someone, so it would be inappropriate to change the lights until they've finished with it. I do agree with you that lights that fail to change right away when there's no car for half a mile are annoying, but to be honest life's too short to be lsoing sleep over it.

basingwerk wrote:
Pedestrian lights are green for cars more than they are green for pedestrians. In fact, unless a pedestrian presses the button, strangely they are permanently green for cars. They could be reversed, so that they are always green for pedestrians. Then, when a car comes along, the car waits for three minutes, then they go green for the car for 5 seconds, then back to red for the car in case some more pedestrians come!
They could do, but it would be a bit on the mad side. Do you really want cars sat at idle using up fuel for no reason? Actually, while I think it's a bit mad it does sound suspiciously close to the reality of Oxford Street and High Holborn shortly before the kengestion charge came along. Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist or anything. :lol:

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
What authority? Modern roads are designed for cars, not for pedestrians. The idea that pedestrians have given up rights or authority over modern roads is laughable - they never had it in the first place.


The problem is that modern roads are designed for cars, for pedestrians.
:?: I'm assuming that should finish "not for pedestrians" or I can't make sense of it.
How is that a problem? That's like saying the problem with trespassing on the railways is that railways were designed for trains not for pedestrians. Or complaining that you can't tighten screws with a hammer.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Lost their rights to walk? Again, this speaks of some divine right that never existed. Let's get this straight. Feet have indeed been around longer than wheels, and on those first paths made by feet for feet (or at least their descendants) we can rightly say that wheels don't have a place. Maybe that's why cycling on the pavement is a no-no. :mrgreen: But then came the wheel, and roads came along shortly after to make life easier for the wheel users. And a good solution it was too. Much better for medieval peasants to know that carts stick to certain routes instead of wandering all over the place. Not that different from today really.


On what ground - might is right? No way!
Again, you're looking at it from the cart driver/motorist perspective. A truly selfish ****hole may feel that way (and with any luck they'll get what's coming to them :) ), but that won't hurt me one bit if I am taking responsibility for my safety. As I said before, as a pedestrian I am really not too interested in an individual driver's attitude or thoughts. I treat them as part of the road, which in turn I treat as a natural hazard.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
I reiterate. Roads are for vehicles. Pavements are for walkers. The latter can use the roads too, but must do so carefully and responsibly.


The roads should stop to allow the pavements to cross.
See above. There are practical reasons why this isn't a good idea.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
As for pedestriansing town centres, frankly I don't see what that's got to do with this at all.


The natural mode of transport tight communities is foot. Cars are dangerous intrusions, so limits are applied to them to make them safer.
You weren't talking about limits, you were talking about exclusion. Pedestrianising a town centre is, by definition, excluding cars. I stand by what I said.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 15:39 
Offline
Banned
Banned

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:47
Posts: 2291
Gatsobait wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
As for pedestriansing town centres, frankly I don't see what that's got to do with this at all.


The natural mode of transport tight communities is foot. Cars are dangerous intrusions, so limits are applied to them to make them safer.
You weren't talking about limits, you were talking about exclusion. Pedestrianising a town centre is, by definition, excluding cars. I stand by what I said.


Pedestrianising a town centre is an absolute form of limit. It’s a speed limit of zero!

Gatsobait wrote:
you make the yak carter sound a bit of a bastard with "get out of the way or be crushed" it's in his interest not to run over a peasant. Delays, aggro, risk of irate fellow peasants turning up with scythes and so on. Equally it's in the interest of the peasant not to be run over, for reasons I think we don't have to go into.


It was in his interest not to run over a peasant, unless he was late, and would get in trouble with the Baron. Consider speed cameras to be a form of modern scythe!

Gatsobait wrote:
I think the kerbs really prevent it being the other way round given the shape of the wheel. :mrgreen: Sure, kerbs wouldn't be a problem if we ditched wheeled transport in favour of hovercraft, but given how hovercraft corner... :shock: - no thanks.


Kerbs show how uncontrollable cars are – they can’t negotiate them. Couple this inflexibility with their unreasonable stopping distance, and they are a real danger to control. Hence pedestrians used to have to compensate for these inadequacies (not now, as drivers are finding out). Yet when one is exposed to danger as a result of compensating for the inadequacies of cars, you blame them for the ensuing collision!

Gatsobait wrote:
… What's different is that the vehicles will all face TWO of the three barriers, and this will happen to each and every vehicle passing through the junction - no exceptions. That's problem no. 1.


That’s excellent thinking, Gatsobait. Imagine how humbled car drivers would be if they knew they had to stop and wait and look left and right before every pavement. And the inconvenience alone would drive them out of their cars!

Gatsobait wrote:
Now bearing in mind that vehicles are larger than pedestrians, making them give way to one pedestrian could cause them to block another, especially a particularly large vehicle like a bus or lorry. That's problem no. 2.


This shows how show how resource hungry cars really are, and adds to their undesirability. The truth about the real cost is coming out now!

Gatsobait wrote:
The only solution to these problems that I can think of is to rip up all adjoining roads and pavements, and relay the whole shooting match with the road surface up against shop doorways and a single double widthe pavement running down the middle.


There is another configuration, where the north and west sides of the street are allocated to cars, and the south and east sides are allocated to walkers, with similar problems. No, you are right, cars and pedestrians don’t mix in towns. As we are stuck with pedestrians, cars have to go!

Gatsobait wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Pedestrian lights are green for cars more than they are green for pedestrians. In fact, unless a pedestrian presses the button, strangely they are permanently green for cars. They could be reversed, so that they are always green for pedestrians. Then, when a car comes along, the car waits for three minutes, then they go green for the car for 5 seconds, then back to red for the car in case some more pedestrians come!
They could do, but it would be a bit on the mad side. Do you really want cars sat at idle using up fuel for no reason?


More reasons why cars are so bad, this time they are dirty and polluting, let alone their visual horrendousness.

Gatsobait wrote:
How is that (modern roads are designed for cars, not for pedestrians) a problem? That's like saying the problem with trespassing on the railways is that railways were designed for trains not for pedestrians. Or complaining that you can't tighten screws with a hammer.


Except that we are stuck with pedestrians, so cars have to go even though roads were designed for cars! Oh, if only bogush were here now! He'd thrash his keyboard into splinters.

_________________
I stole this .sig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 17:13 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
basingwerk wrote:
Pedestrianising a town centre is an absolute form of limit. It?s a speed limit of zero!
So cars are allowed to be there as long as they don't move? :P Hmm, I wonder how much it would cost to have my car lowered by helicopter into Staines High Street, and whether I could defend the inevitable parking ticket on the grounds that it didn't exceeed the notional zero mph speed limit. I suspect I'd be told to stuff off and pay up. :) But let's say for a moment that it is, as you say, a zero mph limit. That still changes nothing. Elsewhere pedestrians must still treat roads with traffic as potentially hazardous and act accordingly. Pedestrianising areas isn't solving anything, it's just an exercise in relocation. I'm not actually against pedestrianisng high streets, but don't tell me it's a great safety benefit 'cos I reckon it achieves square root of bugger all there.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
you make the yak carter sound a bit of a bastard with "get out of the way or be crushed" it's in his interest not to run over a peasant. Delays, aggro, risk of irate fellow peasants turning up with scythes and so on. Equally it's in the interest of the peasant not to be run over, for reasons I think we don't have to go into.
It was in his interest not to run over a peasant, unless he was late, and would get in trouble with the Baron. Consider speed cameras to be a form of modern scythe!
I think the scythe is more akin to litigation and the baron is closer to the scamera myself, but that's really a non-issue. The important thing is that self interest is essential in avoiding an incident, and this is true in both the yak driving carter and our Baldrick character on foot. If Baldrick has no such self interest there is little to prevent him casually wandering underneath the hooves of the yaks. Of course it is equally true to say that if the carter has no such self interest there is little to prevent him from directing the yaks left a bit to run poor Baldrick over. Put the two together and you avoid incidents virtually all the time. It's still happening out on our modern roads probably every second of every day.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
I think the kerbs really prevent it being the other way round given the shape of the wheel. :mrgreen: Sure, kerbs wouldn't be a problem if we ditched wheeled transport in favour of hovercraft, but given how hovercraft corner... :shock: - no thanks.

Kerbs show how uncontrollable cars are ? they can?t negotiate them. Couple this inflexibility with their unreasonable stopping distance, and they are a real danger to control.
Kerbs show how uncontrollable cars are? :? Nope, don't see it at all. Cars can negotiate them (with care on the part of the driver, or at recklessly high speed if the driver is an idiot who doesn't care), but what they do is form a physical impediment at the boundary. And what was that about unreasonable stopping distances? I think stopping distances in modern cars are superb, and even in older ones still pretty good. In order to get a direct comparison I'm going to design a mechanism that will accelerate you to 60 or 70 miles an hour at which point you'll be expected to stop within the Highway Code distances using just your feet and without any control loss (i.e. falling over and rolling along the ground bleeding). If you wish you may wear thick soled boots for this experiment. :twisted: :P :twisted:

basingwerk wrote:
Hence pedestrians used to have to compensate for these inadequacies (not now, as drivers are finding out). Yet when one is exposed to danger as a result of compensating for the inadequacies of cars, you blame them for the ensuing collision!
Nope to both. Pedestrians are not having to compensate for anything. All they have to do is to take the same pragmatic approach to potentially dangerous situations that prevented their ancestors from being eaten five seconds after they came down from the trees. Or fell out of the trees in the case of some of the people who use Wimbledon station :evil: .

As for the blame bit, I think you misunderstand. I am not saying that every car/pedestrian collision is the fault of the pedestrian. Absolutely not, though a significant number certainly are (I've heard the TRL once came up with something like 80% of pedestrian injuries were down to the pedestrians themselves, but I don't know this for sure). However, at the moment we have a virtual presumption that it is usually the fault of the driver, and that is just as prejudicial and unfair as automatically blaming the pedestrian. Personally I find both positions equally repellant. What I am saying is that pedestrians can do a huge amount to prevent themeselves being injured or killed by cars, and that this can be done for very little effort. I'm happy about this when I'm on foot, as quite frankly I am not prepared to entrust my safety to anyone else.

Edit: length was getting a bit excessive, so I'm splitting my responses into two posts.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 17:25 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
Next bit. :)
basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
? What's different is that the vehicles will all face TWO of the three barriers, and this will happen to each and every vehicle passing through the junction - no exceptions. That's problem no. 1.
That?s excellent thinking, Gatsobait. Imagine how humbled car drivers would be if they knew they had to stop and wait and look left and right before every pavement. And the inconvenience alone would drive them out of their cars!
For humbled read "delayed unreasonably", which would also apply to the goods and services used by the minority who choose never to drive. The inconveneice alone, far from driving people out of cars, would drive almost everyone to demand that things were put back the way they were.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Now bearing in mind that vehicles are larger than pedestrians, making them give way to one pedestrian could cause them to block another, especially a particularly large vehicle like a bus or lorry. That's problem no. 2.

This shows how show how resource hungry cars really are, and adds to their undesirability. The truth about the real cost is coming out now!
Pffft. Resource hungry? :lol: In this situation we would have deliberately choked the availbilty of space, which is the specific resource we're talking about. To put it another way, we'll have magnified the real cost for no real gain.

basingwerk wrote:
No, you are right, cars and pedestrians don?t mix in towns. As we are stuck with pedestrians, cars have to go!
Don't put words in my mouth! I have not said that cars and pedestrians don't mix in towns. The closest I have ever said to that is that they don't mix well if both attempt to occupy the same space at the same time, which is something else entirely. Vehicles and pedestrians are fine together around towns. In fact it's hard to imagine a modern town without both present.
Oh, and drawing a conclusion from something that wasn't said is a bit of a sticky wicket too. Cars have to go because we're stuck with pedestrians? Nonsense. There is the space for both provided we don't deliberately screw it up.

basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Do you really want cars sat at idle using up fuel for no reason?

More reasons why cars are so bad, this time they are dirty and polluting, let alone their visual horrendousness.
<sigh> That's all relative apart from the visual thing, which as I've repeatedly said is too subjective. Cars have an undoubted benefit. Without them we would have far less choice of where to work, where to shop, where to go for recreation and leisure. There is a cost to all that of course. They do pollute, but if you allow them to complete their journeys in as short a time as possible they will obviously do so more briefly. Better yet, encourage them to be driven as economically as possible and use less fuel for minimal pollution. Not always possible, but the worst of all worlds is to deliberately force them to sit at idle for absolutely no reason. Like the space issue, it's artificially increasing the cost way beyond its true value.

I'm sorry, but I can't resist coming back to "visual horrendousness". No, no, no, no, no. Cars are objects of great beauty. Drivers should all take great care of their cars, if for no other reason than to prevent their loveliness being marred by bits of unwashed pedestrians. :P :wink: Well, it's just an opinion and as such just as valid as saying that cars are visually horrendous.

basingwerk wrote:
Except that we are stuck with pedestrians, so cars have to go even though roads were designed for cars!
Again, we may be 'stuck with' pedestrians, we certainly will have pedestrians for as long as we have cars, but it doesn't follow that since one will inevitably stay the other has to go. There is room for both to move about in safety. If not pavements would all look like the Somme.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 210 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.407s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]