Safe Speed Forums

On the M4, some new roadworks have gone up in the last couple of months around J6 (I think...it may be J5). There is a single pair of SPECS camera points on the main carriageway, each of which has 2 cameras. It's a 3-lane motorway. J6 is between these two points.

However, at J6, there are also SPECS camera points on each on-slip. I cannot recall whether each of these points has 1 camera or 2. But surely these cannot be "real"? In my mind they conflict with at least two SPECS rules:

1. SPECS are only type-approved for single-lane enforcement, i.e. for each paired set of camera points, you can only get done if you are in the same lane when passing both camera points.

2. Each camera point can only be paired with one other camera point and no more.

So, it seems to me that the on-slip camera point cannot legally be paired with the "next" camera point on the main motorway, as you would have to change lanes between these camera points (breaking Rule 1 above), and besides, the camera point on the main motorway would surely be already paired with the previous camera point on the main motorway (so also pairing it with the on-slip camera point would break Rule 2 above).

Conclusion: the on-slip camera points have to be dummies. Am I correct? (I should point out that this is purely out of curiosity as I don't use those on-slips! )

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

So why expect them to conform to requirements ?
Have a read: Specs The downloadable demo shows three cams in a controlled zone....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

There's a SPECS camera on the clockwise offslip at M60 Junction 25 at Bredbury in the permanent SPECS-controlled 50 zone which also is likely to be a dummy.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

If these SPEC’s are dummies then I suspect they’re nothing to do with safety and all to do with creating confusion and congestion, because from what I’ve seen of SPEC’s systems that is all they do

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I've seen quite a few motorway SPECS cameras with disconnected and dangling cables. The one on the M25/M3 slip road is an example - this one has been disconnected for well over 2 months now and no-one has bothered to reconnect it. With the amount of revenue that these cameras can potentially generate, you would have thought reconnecting it would have been a priority, unless of course the camera was a dummy in the first place....

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Or they don't work as they are supposed to?

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Is that a trick question? You expect them to conform to requirements because, well, they're requirements...




No it doesn't, the slide with the three cameras on it is intended to show why using spot-metering cameras (Gatsos, Truvelos etc) isn't as good as using average-measurement cameras - you get compliance in the vicinity of those three cameras, but not inbetween them...

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Chris

I'm gutted.
Time after time, after time, after time, after time (et-al) there have been posts on here about no-compliance with "requirements".
In fact, it sometimes seems that all the posts are about no-compliance with something.
You'll note from the demo that the cameras can be 10K apart ?
Well, they also do not have to time vehicles from one camera to the NEXT camera....you can time them from one camera to the third along if you want. Who is to say which two are paired ?
You don't make the rules, and you [frequently] don't know what they are anyway.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

SPECS cameras should replace all spot cameras, particularly on faster dual carriageways.

Do you therefore believe that SPECS cut road casualties more than fixed cameras? Any evidence you can point us to?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Not neccesarily, but they do smooth out traffic flow and prevent panic braking compared to fixed cameras.

If you believe they prevent panic braking try driving through the SPEC's system on the A14 around Cambridge. And as for smoothing out traffic they definately cause more congestion than if they weren’t there at all.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I have - compared to the A14 with truvelos, it's a lot nicer.

This is true, but doesn't answer the question as to whether it's permissible to pair cameras on multiple entry gantries with a camera on a single exit gantry, or vice versa - does a "pair" of cameras mean the combination of a UNIQUE entry gantry camera with a UNIQUE exit gantry camera, or does it just mean the combination of any entry gantry camera with any exit gantry camera even if one or both already exist in a different pairing?

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Chris

Whether it is permissible it irrelevant, most will not know if it was done "legally", or not. Many of the sc prats don't even know how they are supposed to be operating anyway. The pairing of the cameras may seem crucial, but the part that matters is whether the software is able to differentiate between a car index appearing from monitoring systems on different lanes. In any case, it would seem that the gradual improvements in the software/firmware means it may soon be possible to read multiple plates appearing on each camera at the same time.
To another point. With the revenue going down, as people learn where the cams are, and also drive more slowly, the scammers are soon going to have to find more sources of income....I feel they will soon be concentrating on vans and trucks.....in my driving around I note that many do not drive within their RESPECTIVE speed limits....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

SPECS could not possibly be used in place of all GATSO/TRUVELO installations due to the way in which it works. SPECS measures the time taken for a vehicle to pass between two cameras, which are a known distance apart. The distance/time calculation then gives the speed.

It can only effectively enforce a speed limit if there are no stops between the measuring points. On most urban and rural roads (excluding motorways & duel carriageways), there are traffic lights, roundabouts, changes of priority and many other reasons why traffic can come to a stop. A stop (or near-stop) renders the distance/time calculation useless. One can exceed the limit by a large margin, stop, then exceed the limit again and not "trip" a SPECS installation.

In motorway roadworks, whether SPECS is safer than spot cameras is an arguable point. Yes, it does prevent some of the panic braking (although you still get some panic braking at the 1st camera of the set), but also means that drivers are spending more time looking at the speedo and less time looking at the road. It would be interesting to see a comparison of accident rates at motorway roadworks sections with SPECS, vs. those with GATSOs, vs. those with VAS and/or no cameras at all.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

I don't think that we need to worry too much about "specs", have you ever tried to exceed an average of 70 mph on our motorways?..

Well, not me personally, you understand, but a "friend" of mine tells me they've had plenty of opportunities to do this on several of the motorways around here... It just depends on when you choose to use them - M40 out of London in the morning is usually free flowing once you get past the M25, the M25 itself can give you a wonderfully clear run in the late evenings etc..

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Chris

Bwahahaha. That isn't how it works in reality, not on motorways at least. For this example I will use a 50mph SPECS section on a normally 70mph motorway

First you get the people who think they are gatsos/truvelos and panic brake accordingly (admittedly these are getting increasingly rare, but they still happen)

Then you get the people who know what they are, and slow down to the speed limit (indicated by GPS) just as they reach the first camera, doing so requires them to move to lane 1 as they are now slower than everyone else.

Then you get the people who slow down a little later, and drive a little below the speed limit (indicated by speedo) to compensate, these people are now the slowest on the road and have to move to L1, though most of them end up in L2.

Now the GPS people have to fight their way into L3 if they want to maintain their speed.

Then you get the people (typically repmobiles) who aren't paying attention and carry on at 70, wondering why everyone else is going slow. Often they will tailgate and flash the L3 people, other times they will see the next set of cameras and panic brake down to 30 to compensate, then dive into L1 as they're now the slowest vehicle on the road.

Then you get the HGVs who know that the SCP wont prosecute until 57mph so just carry on as if nothing has happened, at least until they encounter one of the "just below 50 (speedo)" brigade, or the 30mph "oh shit, got to get my average down to 50 in this next 1/4 mile" repmobile, they they'll often pull suddenly into L2 without warning (especially if the 30mph guy changed lanes and braked rapidly without checking mirrors giving the HGV no chance to stop at all) causing waves of brakes all the way down L2 and pushing some of the "just below 50" people into L3 and slowing down that lane as well.

As you near the end of the SPECS zone, further shuffling takes place as those who know the roadworks or have suitable GPS camera detection devices get ready to accelerate back up to 70+ not at the end of the roadworks but after the last camera. It's not uncommon to see a car so fed up of the actions of it's idiot neighbours through the SPECS zone that they floor it from L1 after the last camera (often with comedy diesel smoke) undertake 3 or 4 cars before pulling into L3 in front of the car that's just started to accelerate since we've now reached the actual NSL sign.


The A14 is a special case, you only have two lanes and one of them is a defacto 56mph lane for 90% of the day, so you don't get all this crap.

And then you get the ones who drive above the limit and change lanes between cameras.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing