Safe Speed Forums

My Daughter was made paraplegic by a carsmash in December. Police report states black-ice to have been the cause of the skid.

May I ask the Forum if Winter Drivers need to be better informed?

My answer would be no, all drivers need better education. Your question suggests that you only need more education when the roads are icey, this is plainly not true. All drivers need education to provide them with the skills to be safe on all surfaces.

Oh and

Hi samandben.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter.

I think you bring up a valid point.


Odin, I think the poster was talking about informing drivers of the conditions, not about education of the skills needed to drive to the conditions.

Am I right S&B?
What are your thoughts on this subject?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

The trouble with black ice, is that it is black... and on most surfaces, you cannot see it.
So, to detect it, you have to step/drive on it, and feel the slide... or watch somebody else do the same.

What CAN be detected are areas prone to icing, which are usually signed these days, and the conditions under which black ice might form. This is warned of in some modern cars by the flashing of the outside ambient temperature display - but it is only a guide.

The best that one can hope for is to survive the various hazards that are experienced on the roads, and to become a better (more aware) driver as a result.
Unfortunately, the present climate is one of mollycuddling drivers with lower limits, signs, advisories, and taking away the studied risk aspect from which so much experience can be gained.
When things go wrong, it is natural to look for somebody/thing to blame - but it is nearly ALWAYS a SET of circumstances which conspire to cause a tragic outcome.

You might be reassured by the COAST thread - perhaps somebody could post up a link?
It is a simple means of remembering the basic rules by which road users are able to anticipate and avoid trouble on the road.
Here is an abbreviated form of it...

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Welcome samandben

That sounds horrific for you & your daughter especially, and do I assume correctly your Mother-in-law? I am sorry to hear that.

These forms are specifically about looking at all aspects of driving, with special reference to skills, knowledge & ability. Plus understanding how best to impart those values, to assess how to drive better, to improve oneself and to look at Road Safety and all the surrounding areas therein.
Many additional areas such as attitude, awareness and observation of all the surrounding environment are also extremely important.

There are some ways in which a car might inform a driver that grip is being lost. There are things that a driver can do, to learn, and become better educated to appreciate that black ice maybe about. As mentioned above, there are usually a 'set' of events, prior to any accident. It is often a full understanding of these events, that can help everyone gain knowledge and understanding of all the issues involved.

There are no schemes that I am aware of, at this time, that might specifically 'inform' a driver that black ice is on a specific road.
We have to therefor look at the surrounding environment, sights and sounds (car tyres go (next to) silent on ice), to help us identify, how to tell that black ice, is a 'high probability', and so then drive accordingly.

I can understand your desire to bring this to many Road Safety Aware Groups attention. What exactly are your goals ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Yes, they need to be informed that as a result of a stupid policy by the tyre industry the tyres they normally drive on are, in effect, summer tyres, and in very low temperatures these give a significantly lower level of grip. I suspect not a lot of people know that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Thank you.
I see how the intended generalisation in my question may have mislead. I agree that education would improve things, but would ask for a focus on winter driving, please.

The Institute of Advanced Motorists make particular mention of the 'hidden' risk of blackice. I have yet to find that expert view elsewhere from considerable research.

My goal is to bring expert-opinion to the attention of those who may consider the need for uprating preventive-measures. Ultimately to prevent more winter-tragedy.

Me and my GF undertook skid pan training last year as she had a couple of dicey moments in her RWD car on ice the winter before and I strongly recommend it to others.

The Finns have skidpan training as part of their learning process and test and look how they perform. We don't get bad conditions very often in this country and when we do we are not prepared. As a teenager I used to work on a dissused airfield with lots of empty back roads wher we "lads" used to "mess about" in our lunch hours without fear of hitting anyone or anything more solid than the odd bush and much was learnt about driving on ice and snow in the winter and handbrake turns etc, this helps when you do hit a patch of ice or diesel that you weren't expecting.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

May i ask for responses, please, about pre-journey information to winter drivers?

Learn as you go along and eventually you will get it pretty close to right.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

When we drive or ride we expect that by 'this time of achievement' (i.e qualified to drive on the roads) we will have gained, appropriate knowledge and understanding, to be pretty well capable of coping with the roads, and as long as we go carefully and properly, we will be safe, and through on-going experience become a good driver.

To understand about some specific fact or facts, specifically for winter driving, would imply that with knowledge there comes a precise answer or collection of facts to provide an answer, but things are generally more involved than this.
It can be good to start by asking first, what is the 'core reason/s' that accidents occur ? How might we improve drivers / riders and the road to help improve conditions through better rules/regs and through engineering (management, development and control, and inc car developments / testing). Groups of people over the years have advised the Governments and Road Safety Bodies, how to improve the roads, cars, & driver attitude, ability knowledge and skills, to help to create safer environments. After all it is accident prevention, that is at the very heart of Road Safety Policy, no one goes out to have a crash.
(see http://www.safespeed.org.uk/ten.html) (The crucial 10 seconds, prior to an accident.)

Most accidents core reason, stem from frustration, or inattention. Many other reasons are less common but obviously play a part and may be more prominent on occasion.
So what of black ice. Well the 'good' and experienced driver would be very aware of the temperature, the road conditions, how gritty the road is and perhaps when the road was last gritted. Was that road a trunk route and gritted as a priority or will it be ages before the road is even looked at. This influences when the journey may take place perhaps, allowing extra or even a LOT of extra journey time to allow to going slowly and never having to rush or 'push' at all - a journey without any time pressure. You may have winter tyres on (as mentioned above and great point ! ). A route may also be altered for straighter roads in preference to the quieter 'back' roads, where more trees and bushes perhaps make a road more likely to have higher ice probabilities.
So then we have the 'best' choice route, and that might have to still include 'minor roads' as some are unavoidable, but we have allowed time to be safe. (i.e. go slow) We then can move onto the car - ensuring all the winter back up clothes, blankets, food and drink, car accessories, and water screen cleaner and scraper (ensuring fresh blades before winter - old rubber won't help!). making sure that the battery is good too and that the car is good mechanically to give one the best chance for most possibilities.
Many cars have devices in of all kinds to warn of temperature changes and these can be useful. A driver can use them as guides to climbing into higher altitude and cooler climates, as well as when the weather is colder and MUCH more care is required as ice is about.
Modern cars are mostly FWD (front wheel drive) so the driver should know that they WILL FEEL less through the steering wheel, so the slightest hint should be read with extreme caution. Even now and again a small steering input to 'test' the road grip to see if there is ANY ice about. If you are unsure then you stop in a layby and check the road with your foot (or hand) and see if the car is telling you that ice is there. Some roads have ice in the deeper road pockets but still grip on the top raised 'pebbles/stones' of the road surface. IF it is nighttime then the lights will shine a light back off any ice - almost like a glittering sequences (ish) and you immediately know that it is there.
The trees / bushes / hedgerows, or pavements/ walkways/ may well have signs of icy weather, with a small matty glimmer surface (cold / frost). People who are out and about may have cloudy breaths, all pointing to very cold conditions. Allow all cars to overtake you - prob by pulling over to their side of the road IF they are following too close, or if you just want them gone for safety reasons.
As we travel and we are sure the surface is OK we can never assume that all parts are therefore OK. A road with hedges and trees might have less snow fall but with ice conditions they can be the worst as some of those areas stay cold all day and at night they freeze over very easily.
Now if the steering tells you you have just hit black ice, you do NOTHING, to the steering, at most ease off the throttle v gently, if you have steering on - well then, you should already be going slow and steady so, be ready for a skid, but just stay with it all as it is (unless you are already in a skid or early stages of one). Sometimes you can hit the patch and be over it almost before you know it. By doing nothing the cars momentum will retain the cars forward propulsion, if you are steering already, then the car will highly likely spin, or be into a skid with rapid onslaught. Then you have to be ready to 'catch it', as soon as the car starts regain some grip.
Now there ARE techniques (like hitting the throttle and deliberately spinning the wheels, but they are advanced, for this initial discussion),

BUT the 'trick' (or information), if you like, is ALL in the Driver's PRIOR Knowledge, Awareness, & Ability to JUDGE accurately, that ice, IS or COULD be about.
It is never there 'out of the blue' the warnings, are there, if you look for them. Many see but do not 'observe'.
Once in a while, the sudden cold areas, can be a little bit of a surprise, but if we think back, we were NOT observing the environment properly, (inattention), or being aware, that the route took us into cold higher altitude regions, and perhaps we had also failed to see the weather signs.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Yes please, very much about informing drivers of the conditions, and not in generalistic terms, either. In particular, microclimates and black ice. For me, if there are sections of a road with known probability of collision, the warning must be loud, clear and frequent. Is it me, or is road closure only ever contemplated after the event? From my researches, Some in the 'roads-industry' have an amazing disregard for the uninformed driver. Even to the extent that they see such warnings as worthless, as they believe that motorists will see a precautionary as 'crying-wolf' and ignore same!

I offer the following responses, based upon findings from my own researches. Not as rhetoric, but in support of my opinion that there are unfortunate, accepted gaps (in the sense that we talk about them, cliché-like, but may not take the time to consider their significance in understanding which do contribute to the realisation of risk:

1. 'Good' and experienced driver would be very aware of the temperature.
*What proportion of drivers have sufficient experience of these infrequent conditions?
*Air temperature is not a reliable indicator of icing.
2. Road conditions
*Dry, clear for the majority of the 20+ mile journey. No prior indicators of risk
3. When the road was last gritted. Was that road a trunk route and gritted as a priority.
*Salting of a road surface does not control ice in many cases
* A major road, salted routinely as it is a major route.
4. Winter tyres
* Would most drivers fit these, if they weren’t informed of the risks of winter motoring?
5. Many cars have devices in of all kinds to warn of temperature changes and these can be useful.
* From what year were these devices fitted, and to what calibre of vehicle? Please see Air temperature, 1. above.
6. Climbing into higher altitude and cooler climates
* Microclimates are seen, by some, as difficult to locate and manage. The site of the smash was at the highest point of a 30+ mile long road.
, as well as when the weather is colder and MUCH more care is required as ice is about.
Modern cars are mostly FWD (front wheel drive) so the driver should know that they WILL FEEL less through the steering wheel, so the slightest hint should be read with extreme caution. Even now and again a small steering input to 'test' the road grip to see if there is ANY ice about. If you are unsure then you stop in a layby and check the road with your foot (or hand) and see if the car is telling you that ice is there. Some roads have ice in the deeper road pockets but still grip on the top raised 'pebbles/stones' of the road surface.
7. If it is night time then the lights will shine a light back off any ice.
* No lights on that section of the road. Smash happened at daybreak.
8. A road with hedges and trees might have less snow fall but with ice conditions they can be the worst as some of those areas stay cold all day and at night they freeze over very easily.
*I believe this to be the most important of factors. Subsequent journeys along the same road during the next 3 days showed unmelted ‘snow’

9. As we travel and we are sure the surface is OK we can never assume that all parts are therefore OK. Now if the steering tells you have just hit black ice…
* An extraordinarily wet surface was seen. Extraordinary in that the road had been dry to that point
* There were about 5 seconds of warning before the steering became uncontrollable.

10. NOT observing the environment properly, (inattention), or being aware, that the route took us into cold higher altitude regions, and perhaps we had also failed to see the weather signs.

Many rural roads round here have signs saying "slippery road" or "ice" and obviously these only apply to certain days of the year but do people actually notice them amongst all the other road clutter?

As Claire pointed out , Hump back bridges, bits of roads that are shaded from the sun, roads that have a lot of lying water when it rains,roads where the wind can whip across from a field opening, are, amongst many others, areas that the experienced motorist would be wary of icy patches. However is this stuff taught any more? I know I learnt it from somewhere but can't remember if it was for my initial test or not.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

If this stuff is not widely known, then I think that I must try to do something about that. I don't know if the scenario of my Daughter's smash was just an unfortunate one where worst factors combined?

A study of history of collisions on each main road where there has been an ice-fatality or serious injury ought to motivate.

well ja Dave Liebchen You are right. As you know .. as German trained driver und Swiss brought up - I am creature of habit. I have winter und summer tyres. Jag has been changed over to summer tyres.

But do you change over? Normal town weather in UK fairly warm - though this last winter was quite sharply cold und thus prone to white und black ice alike.

TO samundben.. TRULY sorry to hear about your daughter. Ja .. I think most astute would realise that if wet und cold - there would be a risk of ice.

Usually white ice you can feel the "crisp crunch"

Black ice? You know you hit because you cannot hear tyre on road und you start to slide. Now .. I know that one of Ted's sisters hit a patch of black ice when aged about 20 as she head home. She say she felt the car move .. slide und she instinctively steer out of it. (I think it was his eldest sister)

I have been on phone mit Claire who ask me perhaps because of alpine background. So whilst the soup simmer und Ted carve up remains of Sunday Roast und so was.. I take five to reply here




Back home .. we can have "ice storms" which happen when the air temp ist lower than 0 degree C und the any rain that fall from warmer air overhead freeze on hitting the gorund. This ist known as a "glaze" which ist what black ice really ist.

More frequent though for Swiss Alps und sometimes even Europe as I recall 1986 being very cold enough to cause in lower lands too. "silver thaw" You get a thaw to deep frost but the water vapour freezes to give a coating of ice. I once saw this in Paris where the trees had icicles on them. It was pretty to see . but potentially lethal und bitterly cold.

Black ice ist another glaze. - ist a sheet of very thin ice. It ist very thin .. so it ist transparent but still lethal.

TELL TALE SIGN .. road will look wet.. not icy. You will feel no traction ..brakes will not kick in as you slide.. you need to know how to steer out of the skid.

Where might you expect?

What I describe above . macro climate. You may find water und a hill brow part of the geography/ Near water.. hump bridges.. areas of road which are prone to cold snaps .. get the sun one minute und then shade .. which cause this to occur.

Bridges .. over passes und so on

How to minimize the danger?

Well we back to COAST where C mean "concentrate on road" .. looking at the tarmac ahead. (if you do this . you also note all the tell tale speed cam trig loops )

But if you look at the tarmac.. you see this "wet looking sheen" in very cold condition

Keep distance from other traffic. You need SPACE UND TIME und your steer out will be based on this split second timing decision making here.

Check speed.. slow it down as soon as you see the wet look glaze ahead. You cannot afford to lose traction here.

Touch brakes VERY gently. Hit hard und you spin it. We could say "cadence or rhythm braking" in a very gentle session so that you can keep control.

Whack into neutral This can help keep you straight.

If you slide . turn the wheel into the direction of the skid. Some think it feel wrong but it not.. it help you steer out of it.


PS samundben. .. you are new here, I am not native English speaker. I am hopeless "pillock of English language" I hope you can understand what I try to say here?

I say again . .. I so SORRY to read about your daughter. I think she in good hands with you as her Papa.

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Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

hey


So sorry to read this.


I endorse everything Wildy posted to you.

Check these links too

http://www.seriousaccidents.com/legal-a ... black-ice/

http://www.gloucestershire.police.uk/La ... 10819.html


I note they add ot our P O W E R by P O W D E R I stand corrected and will refer to POWDER as well as COA--A- ST in future


Wildy has given sound advice. I cannot fault her. I add a couple of links for you to read.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I cannot speak for the country in general, and these things are managed on a county by county basis - maybe room for improvement in some areas?

Here in CUMBRIA, we have a large proportion of high routes, including 1500 feet above sea level Kirkstone Pass.
Most of the routes which are known to ice are signed with a snowflake symbol and a "ROAD LIABLE TO ICING" warning sign.
When routes become treacherous, the local radio stations broadcast warnings - and in some cases, routes are CLOSED.

However, there is a recent phenomenon reported, where drivers of vehicles (mainly of 4x4's but not exclusively) telephone the Roads Information hotlines to ask if routes are impassable - then take to these routes to "show off" their skills in their vehicles - often with results which show them up as the fools that they really are!

Cumbria also has leaflets - handed out in filling stations etc., and a web site with winter driving advice - but at the end of the day, many sites liable to black ice only become apparent on the day when somebody has an off - hopefully without serious consequences - and I cannot foresee a time when money is made available to have somebody check up on remote locations for black ice - so it therefore becomes the responsibility of the driver to take care.

My own argument is that the present driving test is far too simple, and should be longer and more involved - but opponents of such measures say that this would be costly and prevent new drivers being able to convey themselves to and from work or college.
Perhaps YOUR experience would convince them that it IS necessary.

On the question of skidpan training, this is presently impractical in SOME areas, where there are no facilities - but the savings in lives would I think make the provision of such facilities very worth while.

Finally when I urge friends and their families who I know are nervous or lacking in certain skills such as snow and ice driving, or reverse parking to accompany me to an off road site to practice, the usual response is "sorry, we don't have the time" - but your experience shows why it is essential that we ALL take the time to learn everything we can.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!