Safe Speed Forums

This is Kent - Kent and Sussex Courier hereIIRC I have been previously informed when I queried it, that the laser beam rate is too 'low rated' to cause any concerns.
I am unaware of any research but there must be previous laser research as it has been well documented for laser shows and such and there are strict guidelines of operation. If those Health & Safety operations are not being met by speed camera devices that would be most interesting indeed.

Laser Links :
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg224.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/14-1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety
http://www.lasershowsafety.org/faq.htm

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

The chap is a professor of some sort, he should therefore be knowledgeable enough to be able to find the information that is freely available to him to see what standards radar and laser equipment have to meet before they are used in a public place. He can also access the information that is available to him about speed enforcement devices explaining that they have to and do meet the safety standards.
The detector mentioned is most probably detecting the large number of traffic control systems that deploy laser, IR and radar sensor systems as well as vehicles that now use active cruise control and safety systems. No the wonder detectors are buzzing off his dashboard.
To see the quality in the article consider the last heap of guff about everyday and infra-red photography. Why have you not pointed this out, you know very well that is rubbish.
If the professor and his rather lazy campaigning cronies are so worried about infra red emitting systems why doesn't he have the same concerns about his TV remote. I somehow doubt he has had that safety checked or has even read the label. has he had his CD and DVD players scruitinised to verify their emissions. Has he a microwave oven, does it leak, does he get it checked annually, how old is it?
A very poor sensationalist article I thought I had seen teh last of some years ago. It is certainly not something I thought I would see reproduced here without some level of criticism of it.

Absolutely! The world is full of perfectly harmless devices that emit one form of radiation or another - take mobile phones for example...

...oh, er, hang on...

Naturally, I feel that if there's the SLIGHTEST question mark over public safety, it should be thoroughly investigated.

I would be more concerned at WiFi and mobile phone traffic, due to shear volume, and standing watching your microwave oven!
I'm not so worried now, as I don't want any more children - but if I were younger and worked in a café, I would buy a leakage detector!

Rather than the lasers etc. used to measure, it would be more informative to investigate the effect on drivers behaviour of cameras and red light cameras.

By far the WORST device for causing distractive behaviour IMHO are SPECS, where drivers often end up driving some distance at relatively high speeds (45+) far too close to the traffic in front, while concentrating on the speed that they are travelling at, instead of how they are driving.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The first thing I got from that article is the convolution of lasers with radar. These are two totally different technologies.

The group's "unaware"ness of these studies doesn't mean the studies don't exist; the wording of the article could lead one to infer that they didn't even look. I have one for the LTI.

Lasers: for speed enforcement devices, the average output power (I'm being careful with my wording) is remarkably low, practically nothing compared to direct sunlight (even for only the wavelengths of interest). The average optical power output of a typical LTI2020 is likely to be approximately 0.05mW, this is well within the lowest safety limit: Class 1. That is certainly a lot less power than an IR TV remote control (I know this first hand as have done direct comparisons).

Radar: The comparison with a microwave oven, while reasonable in itself, isn't necessarily entirely fair because the operating frequencies are different (by a factor of 10). A lot can happen in an octave, let alone a decade; I don't know if that has any significant bearing for this case.

The comment about 'IR photography' could be a mistaken partial reference to the SPECS system, where an IR sensitive black-and-white camera and a 'colour overview' ("everyday") camera are indeed used. I should point out that this is the journalist's own interpretation, it is not stated or implied from any of the people mentioned within the article.
However, I'm quite sure our speed camera man 'greenshed' will agree with me that SPECS (and ANPR) illuminators output considerably more IR light than TV remote controls, therefore the "guff", while certainly misplaced, isn't without potential for merit.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Well its all the same spectrum innit
Probably a generation thing but the use of the term "rays" lends a slightly comical menacing tone to the peice.

(Plus there's probably been quite alot of progress and research in the 30 years since being an RAF electrician was a relevant qualification.... still it has been a quiet news week as our local paper is also testament to)

Their website : http://www.llrc.org/

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Steve. Whist I am in broad agreement with you, for the sake of accuracy it is important to realise that it is not the power but the power density that is important. Lasers can concentrate a relatively small power into a very small area. That is why they can be used to cut secret agents into small pieces. But there are very strict regulations about the use of lasers so I am sure that we are not likely to be fried or blinded by a Scamra.

On Moles's point about mobile phones: consider these figures.
A 100mW transmitter held 10cm from your brain ( a typical handset). Power density is 0.1/(4/3*pi*0.1^3) ~ 25 watts per sq meter
A 1 KW transmitter a hundred meters away (a typical cell phone station). Powers density is 1000/(4/3*pi*100^3) = 0.25mWatts per square meter

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

BUT given the way the "Scamra" treat the truth on how their policies are affecting road safety ,and their mis ue of stats, can we ever be sure that we are getting the true facts
But rhen again ,when I ee someone like GS get in at the "occky" ,Iwonder if perhaps this report ha touched a raw nerve ,or it's getting close to something "THEY" don't want investigating . Perhaps the sea captain do protest too much ,too soon .
Or i it a Earnest has said - they don't want the effects of this policy where drivers pay more attention to the speedo dial than to the road/conditions highlighted too much .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Putting aside the problems with scameras for the minute, we can be advised by existing well documented laser and radar studies especially those carried out for health and safety.

I do get unnerved a bit though, when I am faced with an LTi (and so it's laser) pointed directly towards me, (no I wasn't stopped), since it is generally advised never to point a laser at any person. I have been formerly involved with lasers from Paul's work, and also animation work for laser displays.
Editing to add: ... implying that I know that with general care they are safe.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I have, in the past, attempted to use that argument to argue in favour of reducing any possible risk from cell phone emissions by activly siting cell base stations on the roofs of school buildings and in town centres (cell phones reduce their transmiting power if the handset is close to a base station to conserve battery power) but it is a difficult idea to get over to the technically unaware.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Generally: yes indeed.
In this case: AIUI it doesn't matter as the LTI laser is class 1 (as opposed to class 1M which is dependent on concentration).

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

The mobile phone power level is selected by the gsm base it is connected to........and is sufficient to maintain a good signal to noise ratio, while not being too high to reduce interference, overloading of the receiver and also to preserve the battery life of the mobile unit.
The maximum power of a uk base unit is some 320 watts, maximum peak. It won't be on that on most of the units, if any.
A microwave wanders around 2450 mhz and the units on some speed cameras and most traffic/pedestrian lights are around 10 ghz...x-band....I have some of them that I use for microwave links...very useful they are too !
Scare stories abound about health effects of any form of emr.....loads....with rarely any substance to them....and the ones that say "cellphone fry your brains" have invariably been smacked down by better research.....oh, and cellphones give you ear cancer...eye cancer...brain cancer.....
Then the "laser cameras boil your eyes".....quite....got several lasers around the house, including a 16 watt argon-ion laser....my eyes still work....I doubt that many people have their eyes subjected to the emissions from a laser long enough to do anything to them...
Hey, if you think any of it is true....then you need to join THIS crowd...loads of laughs.
My village has loads of people who complain about poor mobile coverage...so when the three main providers said they'd put up a micro-base on the village edge to improve the signal you would have expected whoops of joy...no...they complained.....so no base units....worse....they lowered the power of nearby units by rotating the antennas...so now one provider has no signal in the village at all...and the others are worse than before.
The next village fought a similar battle against one provider wanting a base near them.....and ignored the elephant sitting on the edge of the road from another provider.....while not even knowing that the provider they objected to had ALREADY installed the base unit and antenna disguised as a telephone pole, while another had installed a unit on the hilltop overlooking the village disguised as a tree.....which I joyfully pointed out to them......
People: they'll kill you every time.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

But then GS would say that . How can someone who's stood in the conning tower of one of HM submarines ( in close proximity to several radio /microwave transmitters) , be taken seriously . ( Unless of course he's not the person alluded to ,and then ,he's not entitled to complain abouit this post )

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

We must always base beliefs on sound science and engineering where-ever possible. There is clear evidence to show that these reports are unfounded, albeit interesting to debate and consider all the latest findings.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

A call for an urgent study to be carried out on the safety implications of laser speedmeters by Professor Richard Bramhall, Peter Gibby and a councillor Victor Webb is naïve and ignores European safety measures that have already been implemented to make sure that devices are harmless.

Before laser technologies are allowed to be sold for use in the UK and many other countries well established safety measures and standards must be complied with. It would take any one of the 3 men a matter of minutes to discover the wealth of authoritative findings and well established standards that already exist in this field should they choose to look for it.

The trio have specifically targeted their concerns over speed enforcement technology that uses either Infra Red laser beams or radar waves. There are well published standards for laser emissions classing such technology into the degree of danger they pose to health. At the lower end of those classes is “Class 1” which defines the power level that is safe to expose humans to without the risk of damage to health. The Home Office who’s Centre for Applied Science and Technology specifies in their approval documentation what safety standards that speed cameras using radar and laser speedmeters using Infra Red light emission must meet before they are used in the UK. In the Home Office Type Approval process specifications and emissions are checked to ensure standards are met before equipment is approved. Laser speedmeters so approved are all Class 1 laser systems and are hence safe to deploy without risk to health.

It is not a surprise that Mr. Webb has seen an increase in alarms on his Snooper enforcement device detector because it is designed to detect 5 radar bands as well as laser light. Traffic lights and crossings as well as other vehicle operated road automation systems increasingly use radar and light sensors that will trigger the alarm in his device. An alarm in that unit is not therefore always an indication that a speed enforcement device is in use. The majority of times an alarm is heard it will be highly likely to be a Traffic Management device rather than enforcement. It should be noted of course, that the only reason Mr. Gibby’s car would be targeted by laser speedmeter operators is that the operator has observed that it is travelling in excess of the speed limit. Either he is experiencing the aforementioned traffic management sensors or is attracting attention to his vehicle by driving too fast.

If Professor Bramhall and his friends are really interested in devices that are in everyday use that emit Infra Red light why has he not considered the potential for danger that his Infra Red TV remote control poses to his health? It is a device that transmits a higher power than the laser speedmeters in use in the UK.

Vehicle sensors and speed enforcement devices are all subject to well determined and accepted international safety standards; a study is superfluous and a call for one obtuse.

Steve Callaghan, Technical Support Manager for Road Safety Support

KentSafetyCameras

Thank you for the contribution by Steve Challaghan.

We welcome all opinions and enjoy good debates.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

OH - he's moved from submarines ,to Cumbria ,and now to Kent . Welcome to the ancient mariner .,with his pearls of wisdom ,founded on the banning of the red flag . ( Now that was the turning point in road safety - n'est pas Steve)

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

In case anyone is tempted to read that literally: the post in question was reproduced onto this forum by Kent government staff. It is a verbatim copy of the latest comment of the article linked within the first post of this thread.
AFAIK, Steve Callaghan is still in the employ of RSS.


Nice to see I could help you polish up your final version of your ... the original forum comment Steve

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Not any comment on the credentials/ comment on Steve Callaghan - just thougt it was time to make our newer members aware of the credentials of Greenshed - aka Steve Callaghan of Cumrbia speed camera pratnership -someone who likes to give those with speed camera probems doubt in the correct form of action ,. His advice is taht camera pratnershps are always right .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on