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 Post subject: Road Pricing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 15:45 
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This topic carries the comments associated with the following Safe Speed page:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/roadpricing.html

The page discusses 12 serious problems with road pricing proposals.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 23:14 
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Here's an interesting article from an IT perspective:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/06 ... ice_plans/

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 Post subject: Ref road pricing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:40 
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I didn't see anything about how these devices would be fitted, e.g.

- will they be fitted to new cars (added to the price etc)

- what about personal imports and existing cars (would the user have to retro-fit a box? Probably easier to disable)

Plus who will supply the boxes? Will there be competition? How many will be produced / year? How quickly will we have to fit them in existing cars (if at all)? (I can imagine this taking years.)

How will the authorities cope with a mix of vehicles with/without boxes (when the fuel price would/will be different?)

I can imagine a smart-card being used to ID the driver for each journey. Ditto same problems of supply and distribution of these. What happens if you lose your card (you can't drive?)?

Can't help thinking there are just too many:

- technical
- product supply
- process issues around the use/reporting of the system

... for it ever to fly.

Who's going to create the first virus for this new box of tricks?

Anthony


Last edited by Anthony Cutler on Thu Jun 09, 2005 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ref road pricing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 16:20 
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Anthony Cutler wrote:
I didn't see anything about how these devices would be fitted, e.g.

- will they be fitted to new cars (added to the price etc)

- what about personal imports and existing cars (would the user have to retro-fit a box? Probably easier to disable)

Anthony


There may be a link to little known EU legislation referring to E-call. There is legislation going through Europe that requires all cars new cars to be fitted with and E-Call system that allerts the emergency services of your location if there is an emergency. Usualy triggered when the airbag goes off. It consists of a GPS/GSM modem which calls your location using a mobile phone network. Target introduction on new cars was 2008 but it has already slipped. It will be avaliable as an aftermarket fit as well. The same device can be used for toll charges.

If this legislation fails there is a good chance road charging will fail because the infrastructure will not be there.


http://www.escope.info/?page=121

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 19:58 
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Will it extend to Europe? If not we can cry tilt as it gives our Eurobruvs and sisses an unfair advantage. Minbd you - there would be a shedload coming over for a cheap fillup...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 20:56 
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Roger wrote:
Will it extend to Europe? If not we can cry tilt as it gives our Eurobruvs and sisses an unfair advantage. Minbd you - there would be a shedload coming over for a cheap fillup...


That would mean Dover would be a wash with spilt diesel rather than Calais... :x

I think that in Europe it is a dead cert.....Germany already have a very flawed truck toll system using NPR over the morotways. Some countries light Switzerland, Belgium and Austria have a big problem with traffic going through the country using the roads but not contributing to the cost. I think this is going to be Europe wide....another reason to dump the EU

Think about Ireland. The petrol stations in the North are going to be very busy... :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 21:20 
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Paul is right here 100% on his logic. But, even, just supposing, a small part of what he says is wrong ...

The Poll Tax got abandoned because of its administrative nightmare. I think Darling is about to make history with one at least an order of magnitude less workable. Cloud cuckoo land.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 22:46 
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The only reason this road pricing stuff is being touted around is to make the public more accepting of fuel tax hikes. It seems hard to imagine that we can be charged to use our own property on road infrastructure that we have already paid for.

The positive thing about road tolls is that it keeps the peasants off the road and on the bus where they belong. :) I suppose it is possible it will have a positive effect on road safety as the poorest could be the least intelligent, closer to criminality and therefore the more dangerous driver. I don't know whether anyone has studied accident risk and social class, or whether anyone would dare.

I bet speed limits would also get raised across the board as the rich will get fed up of getting points and pay the labour party to raise them.

The economic consequences could be quite interesting. Houses in expensive areas could plummet in value and employers in cities will find they can't get staff, have to pay huge wages or offer tied accomodation. I'd imagine there will be some that will be better off on the dole. Some professions will suffer a shortage of workers and wages will rise. Could people make their employer pay if their employer refuses to let them work from home? Will people that are mugged/attacked in the street that would have otherwise been safely tucked up in their car be able to sue?

People living in expensive areas will probably have to pay a premium for parcel delivery, supermarket delivery and for plumbers/electricians/plasterers etc to visit too. I suspect it will have an effect for a couple of years but then traffic levels will return to how they were as wages catch up.

To think motoring will once again be the preserve of the well healed :twisted: Happy days of the sixties are here again.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 17:43 
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Quote:
Automatic fines for speeding or other offences. (Clearly the box could record speeding offences and send you a fine in the post).

I daresay upmarket cars could actually print it off in the car :lol:

May even flash up "insert licence here" for automated endorsement additions. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 23:48 
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The Road Pricing proposal is completely unworkable in practice, even more so than the Poll Tax was.

The crime is that our taxpayers money is paying the wages of the Government advisors that dream up this crazy stuff.

Meanwhile, not a moment's thought is given to improving public transport and providing a real alternative.

Even using the system for speed enforcement alone would be a disaster, since 50% of licenceholders would be banned within a year, choking their steady tax supply from fuel duty and doing lord-knows-what to the economy.

Laughable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:24 
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...after all, as my son pointed out to me "if they know what you were doing and how fast you were doing it just before you crashed, they'll be able to use this data to prove, once and for all, that speed isn't the cause of accidents...

Won't they?"

Well, won't they? :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 16:11 
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Hi and touche, saga_lout. Point well made, but I'm sure they'd dream up a way of fudging the figures to fit. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 23:06 
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Gatsobait wrote:
...but I'm sure they'd dream up a way of fudging the figures to fit. :(

I didn't include all of my son's words of wisdom. He continued: "Or will the various 'Safety' Camera partnerships across the country just distort the data like they do today?"
I suspect the answer is "YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 19:59 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
After all the ho ha comes the sting -"Car tags to be the enforcer"

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/articl ... 10,00.html


Along with the papers idea on why -
"Government plans to force drivers to carry satellite-linked “black boxes” in their cars as part of a national pay-as-you-drive scheme are unlikely ever to be introduced because ministers fear a public backlash on privacy grounds."

Perhaps the loss of a healthy majority caused a rethink??Is this why some cameras are going??

Edit - possibly wrong place ??


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 22:42 
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Sounds like Melbourne's E-tag system, though I notice that though they talk of it being used on a limited number of roads there's no mention of how limited that number is or which ones it'll be. I suspect they're hoping for everything beginning with M and ending with (T) for starters.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 16:25 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
All this started off as a remedy for road congestion.
Anyone notice that the Highways agency is getting caned for not getting to grips with congestion on trunk routes - think one report in the news said "must do better"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 14:46 
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As the price of oil is going to increase substantially in the next few years it would be easier to do nothing and let market forces do the work. The same is true of congestion. Once people hit their limit for commuting times then they move or change jobs. My commuting limit is about 30 minutes and I find it surprising people spend several hours a day commuting. I assume that is why the roads are being run down and congestion is being purposely introduced - the government is just accelerating a natural process.

It's one thing charging tolls on a road built with private money but quite another when we have already paid for them through taxation.

The government haven't considered what effect it is going to have on inflation either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 23:26 
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saga_lout wrote:
...after all, as my son pointed out to me "if they know what you were doing and how fast you were doing it just before you crashed, they'll be able to use this data to prove, once and for all, that speed isn't the cause of accidents...

Won't they?"

Well, won't they? :roll:


If you drive a Ford you are already screwed. The engine management system records 20 seconds of data on a loop, it stops when the airbag goes off. It is not "advertised" because it is designed to prevent litigation in the event a customer tries to sue the company after a crash. Not a feature they would wish to advertise. Basicaly if you crash in a Mondeo make sure the engine management system is totaly screwed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 01:06 
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Gizmo wrote:
If you drive a Ford you are already screwed. The engine management system records 20 seconds of data on a loop, it stops when the airbag goes off. It is not "advertised" because it is designed to prevent litigation in the event a customer tries to sue the company after a crash. Not a feature they would wish to advertise. Basicaly if you crash in a Mondeo make sure the engine management system is totaly screwed.

Not here. That's true of most or all current model Fords in the US and presumably Canada as well, and it's also true of General Motors. It's not advertised there, but it's fairly well known so it's not like they're trying to hide it. I mailed Ford UK last year to ask if these EDR (Event Data Recorder) boxes were also fitted to UK Fords, and they said no they're not and there are no plans to do so anywhere in Europe at present. Vauxhall didn't reply.

AIUI there is still some debate going on in the US over the use of EDRs. The big question is who actually owns the data, and therefore who has a right to it. The argument goes that if you buy a car then you own all the components that are part of it, including the EDR if fitted and therefore any data it produces. Every now and then I have a look on the site where I first came across this (Tech Central Station) to see if there's any fresh mention of EDRs being used in a court. So far nothing, so I'd guess it's never been tested.

Still, as scary as the idea of EDRs in our cars is there is the possibility of a benefit to the owner. The data from an EDR after a crash could well be used to exhonerate a driver who had been driving correctly. Quite often when two parties are pointing fingers at each other the insurers don't bother to investigate and simply call it 50:50. A bit unfair if the reality was that one driver was 99% responsible, and I imagine innocent drivers could use EDR data in the future to prove this. It might also be used by the police to prove, say, dangerous driving where at present they might only be able to prove a lesser charge, or nothing at all.

On balance I'm okay with the idea of my car having an EDR one day, provided that some strict rules are applied to the use and accessibility of any data it produces. First off it should be clear that the data belongs to me and should not be accessible by anyone else except the police, and then only if the vehicle is involved in a collision. In that case I feel it should be treated like making a statement to the police - obtained under caution and the driver has the right to refuse access, with the possibility of a court deciding whether the driver has something to hide later on. Secondly, the EDR must be designed in such a way that it cannot give any data to anyone except in after a collision. For the same reason that I'm anti ID cards I don't want anything in my car that allows TPTB to snoop on me, especially if I've bought the bloody thing. Under those conditions I'd be quite happy to have one.

Oh, and as saga_lout said, EDRs could prove once and for all that speeding rarely causes a crash and that normally something else was to blame. I think the speed killes mob have more o fear from these things than we have. :)

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 Post subject: Road Pricing
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 08:51 
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The point about foreign cars has much greater significance than you have noted. The presence of foreign vehicles means that any computer system will be designed to accept that there will be unregistered vehicles going passed the cameras and it would be impractical to alert the Police to all of them because many will be genuine foreign vehicles.
The financial savings by driving an unregistered and unlicenced vehicle will be massively increased compared to the present situation so naturally there will be a very substantial increase in the number of unregistered and unlicenced cars (the matching scenario has already happened in London where number plate cloning occurred in response to congestion charging). Cloned foreign number plates is a variant we can expect in response to road pricing coupled with thieves and robbers in our society not wishing to use vehicles that can be tracked there will be a healthy black-market for unregistered and unlicenced cars.
NOTE that the compensation scheme for victims of accidents involving unregistered / unlicenced vehicles comes out of our insurance premiums. Therefore, not only will we be paying for road pricing we will also see a substantial rise in insurance premiums.
Road pricing is doomed because the incentive given to those who are unregistered and unlicenced becomes far greater than just the current £120 of road tax. Therefore the numbers of those who become unregistered and unlicenced drivers will inevitably increase.


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