Safe Speed Forums

You may have heard about the trial to take place in 2006 on the M42, where vehicles will be allowed to drive on the hard shoulder (using it as an extra lane) under certain traffic conditions.

But, is this a workable idea?

Any views on this would be really appreciated, as I am INDEPENDENTLY researching public opinion on this new policy idea for the UK. I have therefore set up a temporary discussion forum / message board.

Please visit
http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/?mforum=hardshoulder

and add any comments you may have (whether you know lots about it or absolutely nothing!). It will only take a few seconds of your time.

Alternatively (if you'd rather not visit the external site), it can be discussed below.

Personally, I'm a little sceptical that this will work in the UK and a bit worried about implications for road safety!!

Very Bad idea. If hard shoulder is used as a lane then how are emergency services going to get to scene of accident quickly? Any vehicle that breaks down, has a puncture, etc will be in great danger of being hit if hard shoulder is in use by traffic.

have you tried reading the highways agency site...? (both of you)

I've read it and all their publications & all consultancy documentation / foreign evidence produced as I have been researching this for some months.

I'm just trying to gauge public opinion & thought the best place to start would be on a site where lots of people are clearly interested in road issues.

What are your thoughts on the pilot, as put across by the Highways Agency?

Just had a quick look.

Refuge areas for breakdowns are good idea, but sometimes hard enough to get car with breakdown to hard shoulder, let alone another 500m away.

They are planning to use overhead gantry signs to control Hard Shoulder use, which is fine until an accident occurs and Hard shoulder is already full of traffic which is unable to change lanes because the Mototrway is blocked. Having been driving on M1 at 70mph and traffic came to a halt ( no creeping forward, a complete halt ), and we did not move again for 8 hours! i know how quickly all lanes can be blocked. While waiting around 15 police cars, ambulances, fire engines, used the hard shoulder to get to the scene quickly and safely - i have yet to hear a good argument for using Hard Shoulder.

Notwithstanding the other arguments, I cannot see how this is going to be too problematic - provided the signage is good and drivers know that they have to vacate the hard shoulder in good time. After all, when the traffic's stationary, one lane can hold up to eight times as many cars as the same length of road with 40mph traffic - so there should be no problem merging.

Cheers
Peter

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Must agree....

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Coz I magically dissappear when it's time to decorate! (Gone sailing !)

What sort of signange do you reckon would be most effective? - Highways Agency propose the standard red X and slanted arrow signs, with short variable messages. I'm not 100% that drivers obey these properly as it is and may delay vacating the hard shoulder until an emergency vehicle is right up behind them.

Hard shoulder running is a disasterous idea.

Our motorways are safe (in part) because of the provision of a hard shoulder.

One big worry is allowing emergency service vehicles to reach the scene of a crash. The hard shoulder provides a valuable access route for them.

Then, when there's a breakdow or a tyre failure the hard shoulder is immediately required. A broken down vehicle in a running lane is a crash waiting to happen - and we won't have long to wait.

Using the hard shoulder is a cheapskate and ill considered approach to a problem caused by underinvestment. If we need another lane, then we need another lane - let's build one. The tax take from motoring is plenty big enough.

I hope and pray that this insane idea to use the hard shoulder as a running lane is proved a failure before too many people are killed. I'd like to see the Transport Minister held personally responsible for any deaths. How do you fancy a manslaughter charge Mr Darling?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Apparently it's been a success in Netherlands - reducing accidents!?!

If a road becomes overloaded with traffic crashes increase. Adding a lane is a good solution. The hard shoulder isn't the right lane to add...

But hard shoulder running is short sighted and dangerous (whatever the Dutch might say!).

However, I'd like to make sure I know what I'm talking about - can I examine the Dutch information anywhere?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I have read about use of the hard shoulder in European countries and the general concensus seams to be that it works well durring certain times of the day.

In terms of emergency services, I can't see a problem as traffic should in theory be able to move over with in the lanes as it does presently on existing road formations.

I look at it this was it would provide extra capacity on busy areas of motorway for little extra cost, which means that no motorway widening that could A) cost a fortune in public money or B) have a negative environmental impact would not have to take place.

This in theory mean the petrol heads that like to charge up and down at 70+ miles an hour may be able to do so without being stuck in congestion... There is another option a nice new and cheap bus lane or multiple occupancy vehicle lane.

I welcome any points from the petrol snorting brigade...

Oilburner

A section of the m4 in South Wales has recently had an "extra" lane provided (between j34 and j33 eastbound) because traffic queues were bringing the whole motorway to a halt every morning.

To do this they incorporated parts of the hard shoulder - and where possible created a new hard shoulder, this means that for a section aprox 2 miles long there is an intermittant hard shoulder and an extra lane.

So far (it's being running for about 6-8 months) I must say it has been very successful, the number of low speed "bumps" have reduced from around 1 every 2 days to - well I'm not sure I only recall 1 in the time it has been running. (I have not seen any above 70 incidents on this stretch ever), the motorway flows at 70 mph in rush hour and I can leave for work some 10-15 mins later than I used to.

The important bit is that wherever possible they extended the road so it became 4 lane with a hard shoulder, and only dropped the hard shoulder where it was impractical (under bridges etc) and the bits of shoulder they did use were converted to to proper road.

I'm not sure jsut using an existing shoulder with no other engineering improvments and a reliance on signs (that's what this sounds like) would bring real benefits.

Cheers

Paul

Would you back hard shoulder running if you would personally be held liable for any increase in deaths? (Very serious question!)

We're trying to maintain a high standard of debate here and ad hominem arguments can get you banned. Please feel free to debate the issues. And welcome.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This is the problem I've found - i.e. locating information for Netherlands. The National Audit Office in their 2004 report said it improved safety and many articles in Local Transport Today (from 2003) say the same, yet I've been unable to locate any proper academic research articles not written in Dutch.

Germany have had mixed results - see journal 'Traffic Engineering and Control' from Jul 2003 (Vol 44 No. 7) article by Mohamed Shahin.

It would also be worth asking this question on SABRE, which is more focused on road design and construction as opposed to driving and safety.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/

There are several relevant threads, for example here and here.

While it's a somewhat unsatisfactory way of increasing rush-hour capacity on the cheap, there are plenty of multi-lane grade-separated all-purpose dual carriageways without hard shoulders that aren't regular scenes of carnage.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Point me to it. Perhaps I'll be able to translate, but no promises though.

cheers
Peter

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I'll try and find the Dutch ones again & cheers for pointing me in direction of previous SABRE discussions - very useful.

Just out of interest - where did everyone hear about the hard shoulder running idea in the first place? Local / national newspapers or TV, or other reports? Just curious

Sorry - idea sends cold shudders running up my spine.

If the idea's so great why design the safety feature into our safest roads of hard shoulders - be very interesting to hear the views of the motorway experts such as IG and IanH.

Will only take one serious accident and access to it denied to emergency services by broken down vehicle before some "expert" gets sued.

Mind you , is this another brain child of the Highways Agency ?

What about stats of vehicles on hard shoulder getting hit by L1 vehicles out of lane??

well i'll let you know how it goes...