Safe Speed Forums

I have just got a new UK built and supplied car with the following note in the handbook:

"Computers in your vehicle are capable of recording detailed data, potentially including but not limited to information such as:

- The use of restraint systems including seat belts by the driver and passengers.
- Information about the performance of various systemsand modules in the vehicle.
- Information related to engine, throttle, steering, brake or other system status.

Any of this information could potentially include information regarding how the driver operates the vehicle, potentially including information regarding vehicle speed, brake, throttle application or steering input. This information may be stored under regular operation, in a crash or near crash event.

This information may be read out and used by:

- ( Car Maker )
- Service and Repair Facilities
- Law enforcement or Government agencies
- Others who may assert a right or obtain your consent to know such information."

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I was not made aware of this by the salesman. Is this legal? Does it infrige my right to privacy? Is this common now?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

No idea about the legalities, but I'd be very interested in knowing which manufacturer it is. I could easily be in favour or against "black boxes" in private cars depending very much on who owns and controls the data and, if someone other than the vehcile owner has free access, to what use the information is put. But I note that in the bit you quoted there's a lot of mays, possiblys, coulds and potentiallys. Nothing definite. I wonder if they're printing one book for more than one English speaking market. Event Data Recorders (as the Americans call 'em) are fitted to most if not all current US Fords and GM cars. If your car is also available in the US it's possible that section of your handbook is aimed at buyers there. OTOH if it's a model of car that you don't see outside Europe... yes, it'd be nice to know where we stand if such systems are turning up on UK cars.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

The handbook statements look more like 'legal disclaimer' than a statement describing equipment that is actually installed.

I suggest you write to the manufacturer asking exactly what data may be recorded by your vehicle. If there's anything worrying, we should afford them the full glare of publicity.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Ford do it in the UK for sure. It was originaly intended to protect the manufacturer from litigation by drivers who had accidents. It was kept "secret" for a couple of years. Speed is recorded on a continuous loop (about 20 seconds of event time). It stops recording then the airbag sensor detects an impact.

I have not heard of it being used in a prosecution in the UK yet. The investigators probably don't have the equipment to read the data.

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Speed camera policy Kills

That's what I think.

With just about everything being computer controlled, every input has to be stored at least briefly. Its reasonable to assume that with the rigt tools some of the information can be retrieved.

For instance, engine management systems have had the ability to adapt to a drivers style for over 20 years. They can't possibly do that without some record of driving input.

Gizmo, I've heard a lot of rumours that Ford UK fit EDRs to current vehicles, but Ford flat denied it when I asked them last year. They also said there were no plans to do so anywhere in the European Union and no legislation current or pending that would compel them to. North America only was what they told me, so that's another reason why I was interested in what make of car Malcolm had bought. If it's a Ford and that fairly non-committal wording in the handbook does in fact mean there is such a device on the car, then it means that not only do we have privacy concerns but also that the Ford bod was a . However, Ford and GM are both quite open about EDRs on US vehicles. And yet not only are they happy to admit that EDRs exist there are lists available of which cars have them (IIRC it was either all Fords and nearly all GM or the other way round). EDRs are probably no less controversial there than here, and if they openly admit they are used in the US I can't think of a motivation for them to lie about it here. (I'm talking specifically about the airbag connected EDRs here, not the other systems that Homer mentions.)

Interestingly Vauxhall didn't bother to reply, so if there are EDRs on any UK cars Vauxhall would be where I'd look first. Not saying there are, just that if they can't take the few seconds to reply "Dear Sir, Nope. Regards, Vauxhall" you have to wonder why. Maybe they didn't want to confirm it, or maybe they just couldn't be bothered if I didn't seem like a potential customer, or maybe the email got lost or just overlooked.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Because vehicles have become GLOBAL most of the product is used world wide. Vehicles equiped with the EEC5 engine management system (circa 1998 to 2004) does not have data recording (includes old shape Focus etc). Anything fitted with the newer engine controller has this feature. The on-cost is about 20p per unit. The Focus RS Turbo uses the later controler, you have been warned.

I think it would be worth a formal letter from the AA, RAC foundation or ABD to the major manufacturers to get an official statement.

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Speed camera policy Kills

I didn't say the make of car initially as I didn't want you to think I'm a smartarse but ..... it's an Aston Martin DB9, so it's sort of a Ford.

It is sold in the USA so the warnings may be common to all the English handbooks as noted above. However, I would think the car electronics are the same in all models.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I saw the production line at Gaydon for the DB9 when they were building the first cars. It is a fantastic looking car. Very well engineered.

As far as I know they are the same hardware in all markets. Its not something the manufacturer is going to own up to though. I would bet that ALL DB9s have data recording.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Kind of what I expected where a vehicle is made in country A where there is no requirement for such a system but is also sold in countries B, C and D where there is. However, isn't there a distinction between engine management systems than can be used in this way due to the way they work and what they need to do, and the American EDR units which are specifically designed for the purpose of collecting data in the event of a crash and fitted for that sole purpose?


Brilliant idea. They may be prepared to bullshit or fob off one bloke sending them an e-mail, but enquires from the ABD would be another thing entirely. And the AA or RAC would be harder still since they've got the resources to take cars to bits to see what makes them tick. I was toying with the idea of talking to local bodyshops to see if they knew if any vehilces had them and if so which makes, but your idea is better.



Nothing smartarse about it mate. I'm not jealous at all <sinks teeth into keyboard>

I agree with Gizmo. It's so much easier for a manufacturer that sells the same car for a number of different markets to make them all the same way, and that probably applies even more to something like an Aston where the sales volumes are fairly low and so it gets made only in one place. I could believe that there'd be differences in a Ford Taurus in the US, a Mondeo here and a Falcon in Oz even though they're pretty much the same car under the skin (or so I've heard). I could believe that exactly the same car made for seperate markets in factories 1000s of miles apart might have differences e.g. a Gatsobaitmobile made in Detroit for the US would have an EDR and a Gatsobaitmobile made in Dagenham for the EU wouldn't. But I think we can take it for granted that aside from LHD and RHD differences and spec/trim every DB9 will be the same as every other DB9.

Don't know how much of it is Ford's policy and how much is legal requirements in the US. I suspect the former as I haven't been able to find out for sure that non-US owned car companies are fitting EDRs to their US vehicles. It's probably something they think is a good idea, possibly for legal reasons as Gizmo has said. That's pretty understandable given how litigious America has become, and if that's the motivation then they probably will become more widespread here. For the moment I imagine that the only British cars that have EDRs are those Fords and GMs that were made in the US (Ford GT for example) or those that share certain systems. I expect we'll know before it becomes widespread though. Plenty of people know about the American use of EDRs and the manufactureres never really tried to make a secret of it there - sure, they never exactly made it a selling point, AFAICT but it wasn't hushed up. It wouldn't necessarily put me off buying one either, but for sure I'd want to know if it was there or not.

BTW I hope you enjoy your DB9, but if you do get bored with driving it PM me and we'll sort out a really good rate for me to chauffeur you in it.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If you can afford a DB9, you should be able to afford a membership of Safe Speed too..

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

OK, OK, done!

Just hope that we aren't all on some government watch list as subversives.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Welcome aboard.......

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Speed camera policy Kills

Hmmm.. DB9 and a "Gold Membership"?? Flash git!


Oh well, if we are on some list of those who think that the government are a shower of ****, we're going to be in company with some 30,000,000 other "suspects".

Anyroadup, welcome to this subversive nest of vipers.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

If true, this is intolerable.

Not only do we already have a government (for want of a better word) that seems hell bent on checking our every move, are we now to have our own damned cars checking up on us?

I don't know who has initiated this foul system, but in my view the motor manufacturers and the driving community should be getting together to kill off any such developments immediately.

What the hell do the motor manufacturers think they are doing imposing this abomination on the people who spend hard earned money buying their cars? Perhaps if nobody buys a new car for the next three years...?

Best wishes all,
Dave - in blood pressure trouble again!

I hope the government agencies have more important people to be watching right now.

What a scary concept!

I can see black boxes having some good uses possibly for accident investigations. Heck, it may even get you out of a legal jam when Driver B slams into the side of you. BUT, for manufactures to have access to this data. mmmmm dont know. They have always been able to grab data from the ECM and things but from what I know that was always for diagnostic purposes. But recording devices. mmmmmm Data protection act must come into this somehow...

ps. on a side note. This must be the only forum with no new user into thread. Can someone point this sad excuse for a Londoner in the right direction???

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Another day, another ticket.

Not sure if this is what you mean, but the L-plate under your ID tells everyone you're a new user and IIRC SafeSpeed has set it to vanish after ten posts or so. Or is that a typo and is supposed to be a new user intro thread? If so, you can use the sticky About our visitors thread in the General Chat forum to introduce yourself.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Ooops, sorry yes that was a typo.

Thanks for the info. New user thread was the query.

ta,

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Another day, another ticket.