Safe Speed Forums

Riding along the embankment this morning I noticed two non-descript vans parked in the bus lane. Pl*nkers I'm thinking, and that's before I notice a laser on a tripod between the vans. A little further up the road there's at least 30 police standing around and a further 6 police cars parked up in the bus lane along with 2 people they've pulled.
Stunning use of resources, not least because anyone who was exceeding the limit wasn't endangering anyone and can only have been doing it for a few hundred metres due to the traffic (so rather pointless to be doing so in the first place, but that's another matter).
If they're going to put that many police on the road why not have them pulling all the tw*ts running red lights?

edit: forgot to mention, the vans were parked next to a gatso.

ANPR?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Yeah. That's what I think. All the cops were an 'intercept' team.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

ANPR as in finding unregistered vehicles? Don't think so, the 2 pulled over were a DHL van and a late model Audi, and not sure how 30 cops on foot would be able to 'intercept' anything, but they did all have ticket books in hand.

Obviously most people will stop when signalled to do so, so officers on foot is consistent with ANPR.

If the visible device was a speed meter, it needed an operator. If it was ANPR it wouldn't - it'd just sit there gathering data (not evidence).

Still sounds like ANPR.

They have 28 databases for ANPR for London (good source), including those that have not paid the CIVIL congestion charge penalties. How come the Police get involved in that?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

well there was a guy with a walkie-talkie standing behind it. Do you have a pic of an ANPR camera? This one looked like a small, black rectangular box with 2 lenses on the front.

I'd also like to know why they needed quite so many police there. There was only space to pull over 3, maybe 4 cars.

[quote="SafeSpeed]
They have 28 databases for ANPR for London (good source), including those that have not paid the CIVIL congestion charge penalties. How come the Police get involved in that?[/quote]

At a rough guess:

non-payment on the day = letter
no response to letter = summons
no response to summons = court order
non-payment = bailiffs
no success by bailiffs = arrest warrant

I'm positive that describes an ANPR camera set up because I drove past one like that on the A303 a few months ago fast enough to have got a NIP if it was for speed checking. Were they side by side lenses? The one I saw was and being on a d-c I assumed this was one lens per lane. Also the people operating it seemed to be paying little attention if it were a speed check - no one at the tripod moving the lens around to track vehicles as you'd expect. In fact one was leaning against the door of the van chatting to the one inside. Almost like their main function was to pick the stuff up if the wind blew the tripod over.

The other thing that makes me sure that was ANPR you saw on the embankment is the numbers of police. You can sometimes see a similar set-up on the A30 between Camberley and Bagshot, particularly if there's any high profile event going on at the posh hotel along there (the ANPR teams were out for some meeting of EU ministers there the first time I saw 'em, and IIRC the English Rugby team had the World Cup press conference and piss-up there as well which also got the ANPR folks out). Also Prince Edward and missus live down the road. It's normally a van or two, a couple or three cars (usually something with a bit more grunt than a bog standard panda) and anywhere from 6 to 10 cops on bikes. Were it a speed check they'd be wasting a huge amount of time and manpower on a road that often doesn't get much above 20 in the rush hour. Besides, I saw the same thing again in Reading last week, and this time I noticed that Thames Valley police actually have ANPR written on the van.


Maybe that's why they have bikes as well. So they can follow the vehicle easily and pull them over somewhere else? Dunno, just guessing. As for the numbers you saw standing about in London I'd guess maybe they were looking for something specific that would require a lot of bodies. A van full of illegal immigrants perhaps? I know ANPR caught a minibus full on the M3 a couple of months ago. Again, just guessing but I woudn't be surprised if it was something like that.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

no, vertical.


no bikes in this case, just cars - all empty, not that you'd be able to make a quick getaway from there.

Being in 'the zone', maybe they were looking for cloned plates.

Nope. No arrest is possible for a civil offence. The congestion charge is 'decriminalised'.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No idea why they need two, then. Perhaps the BiBs or camera operator will be able to explain.


no bikes in this case, just cars - all empty, not that you'd be able to make a quick getaway from there.[/quote]
Sorry, I worded that badly. I meant that I think that might be the reason for bikes at the Surrey and TVP ANPR set ups I've seen. Obviously doesn't apply to the one you saw in London. Looking for cloned plates in the zone would make sense, but while we're touching on that how does an ANPR system tell the difference between the kosher car and the clone? If the criminals have been daft enough to take plates off a green Merc and put them on a grey Audi or something then I can see it happening, but what if someone with the same make/model/colour car as me swipes my plates?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

well going from one example I've seen: if you're up in Scotland and you've complained that you're being hounded for non payment of the congestion charge when you've never been to London then pulling over a car with your plates in London shouldn't be an issue.

Sounds exactly like the ANPR setup I have seen here.

If it's a speed trap they have no need to stop anyone.

As for stopping a DHL van, maybe they had some other intelligence which suggested a vehicle bomb? You don't know the van was stopped because of an ANPR hit.

ANPR can reveal a few problems - why we deploy more officers than public may think may be necessary!

Cannot really disclose too much in public domaine - but ANPR does help our intelligence in many ways - and I have to admit it does save a heck of a lot of leg work - but can go pear shaped if DVLA records are "iffy" I will not deny this can occur - on occasion - but defence is "humans are not perfect and you just cannot get the staff !"

Sometimes there is a double up - illegal number plates being one example. OK - so part of this is scam/ANPR based - and some people do manipulate their plates to furhter personalise them. But... in days of hieghtened perceived terrorism, aninal rights escalation, organised crime - these are the things which do attract our attention. Spo maybe this is why we may consider deploying more officers than seems reasonable l to some

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Which is exactly why the serious criminals make sure that their cars are totally legit - you will only getting the lower end of the scale criminal, that is probably half a sandwich short of a picnic (except in their knowledge of their "rights" when being questioned).

sounds

Correct. But by ignoring a court summons or refusing to comply with a court order, you are committing a criminal offence thereby liable for arrest.

Ahh, that must be it. Thanks.

But I bet there's some marginal or even illegal data use. For example, if TfL can't trace the owner of a vehicle (let's say because of a database error) then the Police get the number plate for ANPR, there could not have been a court order because no individual was identified. It's not just that either - a dozen or even a hundred more scenarios...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely. I'm positive the databases are linked in this way. I'd love to see the fuss if Mrs Millsee was given a court order, ANPR alert put out and then I'm pulled over in her car. Wrongful arrest - you'd better believe it baby!!

Of course, in the scenario I've described in my earlier responses, you are arrested for contempt of court, not for non-payment of the congestion charge.

Try and follow the scenario through if you failed to pay a charge on a private car park. What is the ultimate sanction?