Safe Speed Forums

There was a fatal accident 500m from my drive last week. The village council are looking for suggestions to improve safety at this bad junction.

A woman with a child in the passenger seat pulled out of a side road to turn right. A milk tanker on the main road ploughed into the side of her killing her but not the child.

There are a few factors making this junction dangerous.
The junction is just after a left bend in the main road. The road goes downhiil at this point. It is near the end of the village and some cars are speeding up in anticipation of the NSL about 200m further on.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Edit for clarification, the side road is on the left as you leave the village.

Reactive traffic lights that give priority to the main road but can detect when someone is waiting to turn out?

This sounds like a perfect place for a high accident rate. And an ideal spot for a partnership to make some money without addressing the problem at all. No doubt the milk lorry was exceeding the speed limit, which will give them more reason to suggest it. There are very many places like this around the country, many of them with private drives onto country lanes with a NSL.

Several ways I can think of, not all of which may be feasible.

Install a slip lane, and make the side road left turn only.
Re-route the road to before the bend.
Make the road one-way to force people an alternative route when joining the main road.
Install lights (as suggested above), with the lights on the main road visible well before the bend.
Install a static sign stating "Caution - Hidden junction"
Install a vehicle activated sign, that activates if there is a vehicle waiting at the junction and a vehicle on the main road stating "Slow - Vehicle emerging from hidden junction"

Can't think of any more right now.

Yep they could work with enough warning before the bend. The problem is this is a very conservative (small c) village who don't take to change easily. I think lights are out, they don't have the right image.

Thanks for taking the time Teepee to come up with so many ideas.
First four probably scuppered by the attitude I mentioned before. I really like the last two and will suggest them.
Paradoxically a camera with a "30 slow down" display has been installed in the village only last month. This is the first fatallity for many years. Surely no link?

The drivers of milk tankers and lorries in our area are absolute maniacs, the road through our village if 30 right the way through has a few narrow bends with high walls and they still go through at warp factor nine. I would say "it's only a matter of time before there is a serious accident" but there was a quadruple fatality a few years back where a car overshot a junction and was hit by a tanker *climbing* the hill out the village.

Gareth

Talking to my neighbour, she said this tanker was known to "barrel through the village on a regular basis" N o real evidence of speeding of course. But even at 30 round this bend in the wet and downhill in a heavy vehicle would be reckless in itself.

I simple option could be one of those large convex mirrors sometimes seen opposite hidden entrances to drives etc. They're far from perfect, and not much help to those on the main road, but may give enough extra visibility to anyone trying to turn out of the side road.

Castration of the tanker driver with a blunt instrument would be my suggestion, followed by slow strangulation. Failing that, a speed camera might do the trick.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I have not read anything that says that the tanker driver was speeding, and personally I wouldn't want to be hit by a tanker at any speed. So perhaps, and just perhaps, it was a "careless right turn"?

Hi folks,
Just a thought as a Lgv driver that has to use main roads.
basingwerk wrote:
Castration of the tanker driver with a blunt instrument would be my suggestion, followed by slow strangulation. Failing that, a speed camera might do the trick.

Did the tanker driver pull out into the main road(no)
Was the tanker driver speeding? not from the lay out of the road
The tanker driver was in the wrong place at the wrong time yes
If the TANKER DRIVER had not run into the side of her maybe some unfortunate CAR driver might of?.
I have had lots of near hits where cars and vans see you and just pull out.
It takes a lot to pull up in a Lgv and most car drivers dont understand this.

So dont go blaming the tanker driver as he is not the one that pulled out of the side road.

No I'm not having this Velcar. The tanker driver may not have been speeding but he could still have been going too fast for the situation. I have come out of this junction many times and you can get in difficulties if you don't pull out at speed. An HGV driver worth his salt would take this into consideration when choosing his speed.

Firstly, this death is tragic, but was probably avoidable. Either by re-engineering the road, by VAS {{EXTREME CAUTION - BLIND EXIT}} on the approach or some other method as honestly, MAKING people drive with extra care is nearly impossible.
In circumstances like this it will nearly always affect the opinions of those in close proximity to it as it forces our "it only happens to other people" thinking into harsh reality. A young child has lost her mother, and presumably a father & husband now grieves for her also.

Velcar has some valid points though, and blame should not be dished out just yet. Road safety is not about blame, it is about solutions. And could it be that by your own admission - even you have to pull out at speed.....to make a 'safe' entry into the main road as there appears to be a visibility problem. I take it that there is not enough visibility to allow for judging a sufficient gap in the traffic, or at least something with slightly less mass than a tanker. Incedently, how far is this side road from the corner? 20 yards, 100 yards, as this will help create a better overall picture. ie. Did she see it, put car in gear, let off the handbrake & pull out where it may have been prudent to wait, was it a very quick exit on a visibly clear road & the tanker was upon the car when only half way across, or did the car stall leaving her stranded.

As for the tanker driver, perhaps he is not a regular traveller on this section and as such was unaware of the exit, perhaps he is - but either way, he did not expect to have car directly in his path when rounding the bend and saying that; "he should've 'expected the unexpected'" is just knee jerk and reactionary. It could equally have been said of the car driver "she should've 'expected the unexpected'" as she is just as likely to know the hazards of exiting that junction as anyone else.

I think it is fair to say he should have expected the unexpected.
He is a regular driver through the village.
As for the distance I'm not good at estimating this. It is at the limit of pulling out safely if a car comes round the corner just as you move
out.
The Stirling council have been informed of this junction's dangers a few years ago. Although not blaming them I think something needs to be done now to increase safety.

more to the point, REGARDLESS of anything else, he should have been able to stop in the distance he could see to be clear.

I couldn't agree more. If visitors to the SafeSpeed website take only one thing away with them it should be the SafeSpeed rule.

Always ensure that you can stop comfortably, on your own side of the road, within the distance that you know to be clear.

Incidentally, I am wondering if there is something inherently dangerous about milk tankers. In the South West there have been at least three serious incidents involving these tankers in the last 12 months alone, two of them on the same road. One of which happened last week is very similar to the one being discussed here.

Links to the most recent event
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4420148.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4423922.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4442428.stm

Practical applications of the safe speed rule don't provide protection against someone pulling out unexpectedly in a last second lunge.

It's common on single carriageway NSL A roads (for example) for main road traffic to flow at (or close to) 60mph past waiting traffic in a side road. Clearly there is a 'zone of vulnerability' here, where side road traffic could lunge in front.

This is similar to the potential risk of oncoming traffic swerving across the road into your path at the last second. In either case there's nothing you can do to avoid an impact.

Sometimes we just have to trust the other guy...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's difficult without knowing the full circumstances, but it would appear that (a) the Tanker driver was going a little fast for the circumstances, and (b) the Woman driver had only to negotiate 3 metres of road to enable the tanker to pass behind, and so may have been a little slow?
Off course the tanker driver may have swerved to the right in an attempt to drive around her thinking she would abort the pull out, but all too often I have to watch drivers exit a right turn across a busy road, with GOOD visability, and watch them make a complete hash of it.

Staveley road end, exits onto the A591 - NSL applies. Some drivers wait for a long time, ignoring gaps which I would confidently drive through, THEN, when a slim opportunity presents it's self, lunge through two lanes of traffic.
Although the pull out is questionable, so too is the reaction of passing drivers, who make no attempt to slow, but instead maintain speed and position, threatening the rear of the exiting vehicle.

From what I remember of my driving lessons and test, exits from junctions were taught from a relativley calm environment of an urban setting - presumably so as not to jeopardise the safety of learner and instructor, so without further training, it is up to individuals to hone their skills, which many seem unable to do.

It's worth remembering too, that milk tankers have a schedule to keep to due to the perishable nature of the product. Maybe THIS should be considered too, in the light of the comment regarding his "barreling through" on a regular basis?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Sorry Basingwerk, but UNLESS the tanker driver was EXCEEDING the limit, a camera would be pointless.
If the driver was at an INAPPROPRIATE speed, and had NOT struck the womans car, then it would be a case of merely postponing the inevitable,
i.e. a driver of below average driving standards, who might well cause an accident, even if he is not involved in it himself.
A camera would NEVER be able to tell if his driving was poor. A policeman MIGHT, even if he had committed no offence.
Replacing TrafPol with cameras will only reduce driving standards, while appearing to be addressing them. Hence my use of a word to describe the use of them at Ings, which upset the local "Safety" camera manager.

Have you been on Jury duty, or were you on the other side of the fence ?
Either way, welcome back to the debate!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!