Safe Speed Forums

Is the Government going to review and raise the minimum driver standards required in the uk?

I know we all make mistakes, but some drivers show complete lack of awareness. The test doesn't include motorway driving, why is this? Its seems crazy not to include it. Motorways are the fastest most intimidating roads, new drivers should not left to it and expected to 'learn' once they've passed. Im not saying a learner should go on the motorway on the first lesson, but instructors could show discretion once the learner has built up confidence. I dont count dual carriageways as the same experience as motorways.

Surely improving driver skills would have the single biggest affect on the accident stats.

What do other people think?

We don't usually find that drivers with greater skill have fewer accidents, especially when those skills are related to car control. It seems we tend to use our skills and preserve our margins.

We do find that drivers with better attitudes have lower accident rates. It's a very good thing to foster improved driver attitudes.

I do believe (and I have no research whatsoever to back this up) that certain sorts of focused skills training would be excellent for the accident rate. If we train people in observation, anticipation and planning, I don't think the risk compensation monster kicks in in the same way. But it's never been scientifically studied as far as I can tell.

But the thing that makes the massive difference is "safety culture". See this page:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/roadsafety.html

We have to repair our road safety policy into something that "feeds the safety culture". I'm doing a presentation to MPs and Peers on the 25th March, and that's exactly the point I'll be making.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Was not Pass Plus designed to do this - except that it is optional and expensive?

We agree with you - my wife and her family (all active on these fora - and I am now joining in!) have been arguing the case for on-going training for all for a long time - as the beloved speed camera cannot detect bad driving - but is pretty darned good a copping good drivers just over a posted limit - especially in neighbouring Lancashire (home of scams and increasing accident rates despite this by all accounts!)



Compare the UK with the German Way! Not saying that they do not have accidents - because they do! But will say - find them better motorists on aggregate whenever I have driven over there!

The wife (and those in-laws!) all learned how to drive in Germany. Three of her cousins' kids are case in point: One took her test in Germany (and has since taken IAM and about to take a RoSPA test), and the other two both UK trained. There is a big difference in the standards amongst these youngsters. The German trained girl seemed to be much more polished than her cousins who are both UK trained.

The German system according to my wife's family (Btw - she posts on another channel as "WildCat!" : ) is as follows:

Learners must attend "STARTER CLASSES" @ £20 for 45 minutes.

They then do 10 hours instruction in theory @£125, followed by practical lessons @ £30- £50plus per session which must include motorway and night-time driving.

The test is ca 45 minutes and does include the motorway.

However, if you live more than 50km form autobahn - they test you on "similarly fast road". The motorway element was introduced in 1976 after a probationer caused 5 fatalities. the Germans introduced this within 5 months of this accident.

The instructors are not allowed to enter people for their test until they think the person is ready. (This leads to accusations of "fleecing"

Like the UK - they have 2 year probationary period, and if they commit ANY traffic offence during this time - they are immediately sent back to driving school for "attitude training!" If they have done something more serious than a minor speeding offence - then the probationary perdiod starts over again!

So far - we have not heard of experienced drivers having to go back to school over there - yet!

And what qualifications do our driving instructors need? Confess I do not know!

Do know that German ones have to be at least 23, and be able to drive anything including HGV. They have to have Abitur, attend special training institute for 5 months, 5 d8 hour days per week and studies include law, psychology, practical driving and teaching techniques (with further 2 months for HGV and 1 month for motorbikes). They have to take 4 exams - written, practical, oral and teaching practice.. This costs a fortune, and then they have further 4 year training before they can set up their own schools. They have to have annual updates as well!

Perhaps not just driver standards - but way we teach needs looking at?

One thing we can do is to stop calling all accidents, accidents. An accident is something that can't have been foreseen, like a lightening strike or a tree branch falling on you.

The construction industry have been doing this for years, they don't have many accidents because they use the correct training, equipment and procedures. Even the equipment has to be serviced and maintained to a certain standard.

All the 'accidents' I've had, only one being my fault, were caused by a fuilure of one or more people to do something, failing to observe, failing to react, failing to have their brain turned on.

The construction industry has one of the worst health and safety records in the UK. This is despite recent introduction of CDM regs and tightening up of H&S.

Yes, incidents can occur for for many reasons. but the loss is the same.

I've never understood this claim. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary contains this entry:

accident

I A thing that happens.

1 An event. obs. in gen. sense. LME.

b An event that is without apparent cause or unexpected; an unfortunate event, esp. one causing injury or damage.

The part I emboldened seems perfect for road accidents or crashes.

I couldn't agree more with the rest of your post. There's a great deal the HSE could tell the DfT about using the roads safely. It's all about avoiding incidents that lead to accidents that lead to damage that lead to injury that leads to serious injury that leads to death.

Road safety policy stupidly concentrates on the very rare worst outcomes. It needs to concentrate of the profusion of minor failures, just as modern health and safety methods recommend.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The construction industry has got a poor health and safety record but given the work they do and the fact that there's a macho image of not wearing a hard hat etc, they do pretty well. I used to work for one and the time and effort that went into H&S was amazing - I've never come across another company that was even close.

As an example, every incident was investigated and recommendations published as to how to avoid it happening again. Everybody not just using machinery but anybody even working on a site, had regular training.

If we extrapolate this to driving, every accident would be investigated by the police, recommendations as to how to avoid it happening again published and fed back into the highway code. The highway code would be the rule book, not just a series of nice-to-have's and every driver, no matter how good or experienced, would have to take a compulsory refresher course every, say, 5 years.

Changes in road design, traffic volumes, car technology would be reflected back into the 5 year refresher course.

This is how business do it, it would be unheard of for a JCB driver to be given a licence at 17 years old and then never assessed or trained again until 70. Why can't driving be like this ?

My Chambers' dictionary defines an accident as an "unforeseen or unexpected event", which seems to me to be spot on. The use of the term doesn't exclude the possibility of fault, it merely states that there is no intention involved.

Trying to ban the use of the term is a move towards Orwellian NewSpeak.

Regards,

Peter