Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Fri Jul 17, 2026 02:25

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 08:57 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 23:17
Posts: 499
I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about whether it is green or not to catch the bus, as opposed to driving one's car.

My arguement: buses are infact extremely polluting due to the fact they have only one or two passengers on them at most times of day with perhaps the exception of the rush hour. In adittion to this, i said many of the buses in our local area have old style diesel engines which are substantially less efficient than the exaust emissions of a modern familly car. So, i concluded it is not at all green to catch the bus and the car was a much more environmentally friendly to drive.

Of course, she disagreed with me and I had no evidence to back up what I was saying.

I appereciate this may not be a straight forward simple thing to answer but does anyone have any thoughts or data regarding this subject?

Thanks.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 09:36 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
Perhaps this is a starting point for what you are looking for - ABD Press release based on TRL Report 431: http://www.abd.org.uk/pr/235.htm

ABD PR235 wrote:
No Need To Restrict Cars Because Of Air Pollution, Says TRL
"Restrictions on cars on air quality grounds have been shown not to be warranted" - Transport Research Laboratory
The Association of British Drivers (ABD) welcomes the above finding, reproduced word-for-word from Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) report 431 (page 37), a report which explores future options for a Low Emission Zone (LEZ) in London, and wholly vindicates the ABD's rational position on air quality.

The ABD calls upon all in local authorities, not just those involved in this study, to put a stop to anti-car policies immediately, since these cannot be justified on either environmental or congestion grounds.

ABD Roads & Traffic Spokesman Mark McArthur Christie has this message for those with responsibility for traffic management:

"Recent transport surveys in 1998 and 1999 have shown government forecasts to be false by revealing lower or constant vehicle volumes on urban roads. Yet congestion is getting worse in many places, so it's also clear that local authorities' traffic policies are actually causing the congestion they claim to want to cure.

Pedestrianisation plagues and other road closures, two-way to one-way roads and road narrowing, humps pillows and chicanes, gating cars at traffic lights and empty bus lanes, ever slower speed limits - these are the true sources of growing congestion in pot-hole Britain. This congestion slows down the improvement in air quality we are enjoying and is a blight to the economy."

Contrary to scaremongering messages from pressure groups and even the DETR, designed to propagate the myth that cars are responsible for growing pollution levels, air quality in this country has been improving steadily since 1991 and is forecast to go on improving. London in particular has seen improvements. However there remain calls from those in authority to reduce car use in favour of polluting buses which do not have to pass the same strict emissions tests that cars are forced to meet annually. The message in this quote from TRL 431 is clear:

"Wide-scale exclusion (of cars) would be socially and economically unacceptable. Restrictions on cars on air quality grounds have been shown not to be warranted by this study".

ABD Environment Spokesman, Bernard Abrams, comments:
"This TRL report confirms what the ABD has been saying all along - that buses and taxis are the main reason why air quality targets in London have not been met, even though pollution levels are falling. Petrol car generated pollutants are well within current WHO safe limits. There are three key reasons why buses in particular are an environmental disaster, given that much cleaner transport alternatives exist:

1. The National Environment Technology Centre has shown that a single diesel bus produces as much particulate pollution as 128 petrol cars, and NOx emissions equivalent to 39 cars. Not one of the ageing fleet of diesel buses in London, or elsewhere, carries anything like 100 car-driving passengers, and many operate way below capacity. Meanwhile, taxis often need to return empty from dropping a single passenger - the ultimate in waste - but are encouraged by permission to use bus lanes!

2. Scientists have found one of the most carcinogenic chemicals known to man (3-nitrobenzanthrone) in diesel bus exhausts when the engine is under load, i.e. when pulling away from any High Street bus stop.

3. Public transport such as the bus is not sustainable compared to private transport except on the most heavily used routes, consuming on average 60% more energy per person transported (Automotive Advisers and Associates, Hilden, Germany).

"On the worst days for air quality, much of the problem is due to trans-boundary pollution, drifting up from the continent, yet cars are blamed (wrongly) every time," continues Abrams.

A recent Audit Commission report, 'All Aboard', slammed public transport as costly, inflexible and unreliable, to which the ABD would add 'filthy, polluting and a risk to personal safety for some groups'.

TRL 431, looking to the future, states: "In 2005 M&HGVs and buses would make the largest contribution to traffic emissions of PM10 [particulates] and NOx [oxides of nitrogen]. This suggests that an effective LEZ should target certain categories of vehicle." The ABD points out that these sentences side-by-side plainly show that the Transport Research Laboratory is advising authorities to restrict access to buses and lorries, not cars, in order to improve air quality further, but stops short of daring to actually say so.

ABD Chairman Brian Gregory concludes: "This TRL report confirms that empty bus lanes waiting for half-empty buses are not just a waste of time, money and road space, but also a major source of pollution in our towns and cities. What's more, proposals to charge car drivers for access to towns and cities, as is happening in Bristol and elsewhere, represent a cynical dash for cash by ripping off motorists.
Anti-car policies such as these have nothing whatsoever to do with protecting the environment. We trust that copies of TRL 431 will be provided for -better still, read to - all candidates for the post of Mayor of London, including the farmers' pig, should it stand."

The ABD calls on councils and authorities to recognise this basic fact of transport life - that the car is most often the greenest option.


Reference:
Transport Research Laboratory Report 431 "A Low Emission Zone for London"
by J Cloke, J A Cox, A J Hickman, S D Ellis, M J Ingrey, and K Buchan (MTRU), 2000


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:09 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 23:17
Posts: 499
Thank you; that link is dynamite!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:13 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 16:24
Posts: 322
How many diesel (or petrol) cars are there on the roads dating back to the 1980s compared with buses?

I rest my case.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:53 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
sotonsteve wrote:
How many diesel (or petrol) cars are there on the roads dating back to the 1980s compared with buses?

I rest my case.

Ehh - what is your case?

As most buses are built like, well buses, there are many on the road still running with "P" suffix plates or similar, and the same with coaches which tend to be used for school transport. It has always been the case - I went to secondary school in 1982 in a coach that it later turned out to have been the one used for the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour, and that was getting on a bit. A bus engine is a large and powerful thing and it lasts forever, the same with the basic chassis, but the seats get knacked and sometimes need tarting up, other than that the average bus will go on forever. The MMT coach still had the 8-track player on it a small collection of cartridges (3 or 4), and I have to tell you, that having heard the same songs every day for 5 years because there was nothing else that could be played it got more than a little bit boring. Oh and a new bus costs a lot of money.

Cars are built to a budget, and unless given real TLC most have rusted down to nothing or failed on so many MOT points that they are not economical to repair and get scrapped. Many people change them on a 3 year cycle so after about 15 years they have been through 5 owners, are knacked, and are worth -£50, because you now have to pay the scrapyard to take them from you. You don't see many P suffix cars driving around, even P prefix are very rare, and most cars now have Cats fitted.

TfL are introducing a ban on older vehicles (over 10 years old) for exactly this reason, but that only means that the older knackered London carcinogen belchers will be moved out to the suburbs and smaller towns so that we get our fair share of lung destroying stink. They are all supposed to have retrofitted improved exhaust systems to clean them up, but it is widely known that they bugger up the fuel economy (in the same way that Cats do on cars) so the operators find ways around it as they cannot afford the extra fuel costs.

However back to the "Green" argument, it should be considered that the foul polluting rolling obstruction is going to do that journey whether or not you get on it. So the overall green cost is higher if you drive yourself (should you be that extremely rare person that actually wants to go where the bus is going), and when you factor in manufacturing and disposal things move even more in the favour of that 30 year old bus which probably didn't have anything like the environmental impact of the 10 cars the average motorist has gone though over the same period. So buses are "good" if everybody is forced to use them.

I don't use them, because they never go where and when I want them to, and having payed out all that money to buy, tax and insure my car, I am bloody well going to use it. And besides, how do you get the bulging full supermarket trolley of groceries (now in 12 carrier bags) and the child and pushchair to and from the bus stop when there is only one of you?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:33 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 22:21
Posts: 925
As Rewolf says, the bus is going to make the journey regardless so catching it would be better then driving.

I use buses and trains when they suit my travel needs, which is "sometimes". Im not going to pretend they are a replacement for the car in anyway way shape or form. However I don't have this hatred for public transport that some people, on here and elsewhere do.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:48 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Quote:
As most buses are built like, well buses, there are many on the road still running with "P" suffix plates or similar, and the same with coaches which tend to be used for school transport. It has always been the case

You have P plate buses? :shock:
Our newest buses are N Reg'd!! The open top tourist buses are even older!

However, we now have this in Bowness 4 days a week! :lol:
Image

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:54 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:05
Posts: 1044
Location: Hillingdon
Rewolf wrote:
As most buses are built like, well buses, there are many on the road still running with "P" suffix plates or similar


And even older, there's at least one 'M' reg working out here in First Berkshire territory... Plus, as Ken continues to press the London operators to operate TfL routes with newer buses, the operators end up shifting their older buses onto their regional sister companies - First in Slough have only recently replaced their N reg boneshakers with slightly less uncomfortable R reg cast-offs from First London.

(Presumably the same is true for other operators, but living and working in a part of the Thames Valley which is almost entirely served by First, and being married to someone who works for First in London, my personal knowledge is therefore limited somewhat to the goings-on within the First empire...)


Quote:
TfL are introducing a ban on older vehicles (over 10 years old) for exactly this reason


Which is utterly crazy - whilst the current crop of 10 year olds might be a bit crappy from an emissions point of view, in a few years time it'll be the current 7-8 year olds which hit the 10 year barrier, and yet provided they're reasonably well looked after (which, admittedly, is something bus operators are not generally known for doing...) their emissions shouldn't be any worse then than they are now when they're not at risk of being banned. Furthermore, buses can and have been re-engined - the Routemasters had almost all been re-engined (twice in some cases) to bring them up to the standards of the time the engine replacement took place.

And whilst we're on the subject of London - the latest news regarding the anti-4x4 brigade wanting to more than double the Kengestion charge for vehicles exceeding 225g/km of CO2 made me :roll:, especially since that figure is exceeded by several models of black cab, the BMWs which the Met Police seem rather keen on buying, and the Jaguars and Omegas used to shuffle MPs around the place... But noooo, let's not bother trying to set a good example and start by reducing the emissions of all the vehicles which spew out emissions on a daily basis within London, let's just slap the occasional visitor to the city with an even bigger financial burden.

_________________
Chris


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 08:45 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 23:17
Posts: 499
Capri2.8i wrote:
As Rewolf says, the bus is going to make the journey regardless so catching it would be better then driving.


I disagree with this.

I'm going to make my car journey regardless, so catching the bus is not greener than driving.

If fewer people use buses, the service will be cut back which is better for the environment, and congestion :mrgreen:

Long term goals Vs short term gains.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 09:07 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 23:17
Posts: 499
Actually, the main reasons I don't use the bus are as follows:

1) Cost: £5 into town and back, an 8 mile trip each way. My equivelelnt fuel costs would be about £1.50

2) Lack of frequency. I'm not prepared to wait for upto 1 hour for a bus there and the same amount of time back

3) I cant understand bus timetables and I have no intention or desire to.

4)Lack of reliability. I have had to get taxis home as the last bus has failed to run.

5) I have to walk a mile to the bus station to catch a bus. If i'm going to be enticed onto public transport this just isn't good enough or convenient!

6) The bus drivers I have come across up here could hardly be described as cutomer orientated. they don't seem to know the local geography so are no good with advice and they grumble if you don't have the correct change. For goodness sake! I'm very sorry but the cash point dispenses £10 notes not bus fares.

7) there are too many different bus companies,; who goes where?! When?! How?! From Where?! How do I find out?!

8) Buses on the way into town take the longest most convoluted route possible so the journey takes twice as long.

9) Buses are uncomfortable and viabrate to the point i think the windows are about to fall out

10) There is no leg room

11) You can't control who sits next to you, what they're eating, when they last washed or how fat they are.

12) My car is just too convenient. i can't think iof any anticar measure that would stop me from using it.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 09:14 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
The services cannot be cut back much more because there is a segment of society that doesn't have access to cars, whether through choice (not learning in the first place) or prescription - medical, financial or legal (i.e. banned from driving). For whatever reason, society has chosen that a public transport system should be provided to allow these "less fortunates" mobility.

However the provision of public transport can often be done much more effectively through a more demand driven service - such as Ring and Ride services that are being introduced in more rural areas where regular large bus services just cannot be justified, or through taxi services. These much more flexible options are probably the way to go, as would be the use of smaller buses during periods of lower demand reserving the large vehicles for use only when the necessary demand is there.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 13:51 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 16:24
Posts: 322
Rewolf wrote:
sotonsteve wrote:
How many diesel (or petrol) cars are there on the roads dating back to the 1980s compared with buses?

I rest my case.

Ehh - what is your case?


More modern engines are more efficient when it comes to fuel consumption and release fewer emissions, especially since the advent of the catalytic converter.

Did a 1986 Ford Escort diesel do 50mpg like the modern day Ford Focus equivalent? In fact, what was the most efficient car back then? And what were the emissions of the cleanest car on the market?

Bus engines may last forever and ever, but that doesn't make them environmentally friendly, does it? A steam train could run forever and ever, but having inhaled some air from a steam train at the opposite side of a station car park I can tell you it wasn't pleasant!


Last edited by sotonsteve on Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 23:00 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 18:54
Posts: 4036
Location: Cumbria
We are told that CO2 is the biggest single problem these days and catalysts do absolutely nothing to reduce this - in fact, they make it worse! In a spectacular "own goal" by the tree huggers, they managed to persuade the European Commission to impose emissions limits that would dramatically reduce pollutants like Oxides of Nitrogen and Carbon Monoxide that cause "smog" and "acid rain". At the time, the major manufacturers were (mostly) trying to develop "lean burn" engines that ran at air fuel ratios around 17:1 rather than the 14.7:1 that is normal in a petrol engine. The only way manufacturers could meet the new requirements was to fit "cats". These need th engine to run at the richer 14.7:1 ratio in order to work. This had the effect of making petrol cars more thirsty and produce more CO2 for a while. OK, engine technology has come on somewhat and they are starting to claw back some lost ground but they could be less thirsty and produce less CO2 even now if they didn't need to have cats!

The same event also helped diesel cars get a toe hold in the market place as these had inherently better emissions characteristics (except for the soot!) than petrol engines anyway. My parents' old Citroen BX (1.7 normally aspirated diesel) from 1988 does 50+ to the gallon - it's just dog slow!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 00:22 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Two years ago, three adults and four children from Staveley to Windermere Station cost £13.50
Take the bus? Not if I have to pay for it!!
Tonight I followed the bus along the above route. It travelled at 30 mph along most of the route in the NSL and 40 limit sections, and at Bannerigg, slowed to 20 mph, and finally in the 30 mph at Windermere, slowed to 15 mph for over 300 yards. Only 3 people on the bus, and a long queue of 10 cars, all baulked behind it! :x
VERY fuel efficient I must say!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:09 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 16:24
Posts: 322
How many miles to the gallon does a bus do, anyone?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:03 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
These figures from the National Environmental Technology Centre:

Code:
                                                 Carbon    Hydro-  Oxides of  Particu-  Carbon
                                                monoxide  carbons  nitrogen    lates    Dioxide

Petrol car without three-way catalyst: pre 1993   100       100      100         11       100
Petrol car with three-way catalyst:    1993-1996   15         9       19          5       108
Petrol car with three-way catalyst:    1997-       10         4        9          5       108

DERV car:                              pre 1993     7        10       43        100       111
DERV car:                              1993-1996    4         4       29         25       111
DERV car:                              1997-        3         3       21         11       111

Buses:                                 pre 1993    63        83      795        458       596
Buses:                                 1993-1996   28        90      859        304       596
Buses:                                 1997-       22        84      614        187       596


The average bus occupancy is also much lower than a lot of people would think.
Even at peak commuting times, many buses are virtually empty on their outward journeys in the mornings and on their inward journeys in the afternoons.
And then they're seldom anywhere near full from terminus to terminus - they normally start out quite empty and fill up as they're going along.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 18:42 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 22:21
Posts: 925
It's very easy to critise and moan, but can anyone suggest a real credible alternative to the bus for those that can't, or won't, drive a car?

So, clearly, we all have cars here and there is very rarely a time when we need to catch a bus. Just think for a minute about those that don't.

Public transport will only ever be efficent in relatively large towns and cities. It is provided elsewhere to avoid leaving people stranded, typically the young, the old and the less well off.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 19:11 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Capri2.8i wrote:
Public transport will only ever be efficent in relatively large towns and cities. It is provided elsewhere to avoid leaving people stranded, typically the young, the old and the less well off.


And subsidised by local authorities as requested by the bus companies - after Sunday opening became frequent, our local residents association asked a councilor about the possibility of upping the frequency of one route on sundays on behalf of members - basiclly the bus companies would have needed to feel that the county would make it worth their while ---fell at the first hurdle that idea..

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:41 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 14:47
Posts: 1659
Location: A Dark Desert Highway
T2006 wrote:
I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about whether it is green or not to catch the bus, as opposed to driving one's car.

In adittion to this, i said many of the buses in our local area have old style diesel engines which are substantially less efficient than the exaust emissions of a modern familly car.

Thanks.


Are you not getting effeciencey and emissions confused? I understand that alot of buses use the 5.9 litre B Series Cummins. This is a great engine. I've done 4400 hours with one and counting, and I'll wager that it is more effecient than many a car. I doubt however that it is more economical for one person to travel on an empty bus than in a car.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 23:13 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
Capri2.8i wrote:
It's very easy to critise and moan, but can anyone suggest a real credible alternative to the bus for those that can't, or won't, drive a car?


Nobody here is suggesting that we don't need buses.
What we're up against is the rather forlorn belief that buses can and should replace cars.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 60 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.101s | 10 Queries | GZIP : Off ]