Safe Speed Forums

If you were drafting a policy for safespeed what areas would you think are worthy of comment...

My view...

filtering - no advice in the HWC, so it stays vague - I'd want clear advice risks and best practice.

use of bus lanes and cycle advance stops - seems appropriate for all vulneralbe road users/congesting busting forms of transport to have access.

use of high visibility - risk compensation not well understood - actually benefits only assumed - non adoption contributes to contributory negligence

air bags - focus should be on airbags in clothing and proper (cambridge type) testing

crack down on vendors making PPE claims on non-tested clothing.

introduce a zero VAT incentive on cambridge tested clothing

Allow dark visors for daylight use (euro harmonisation)

clarify definition of stationary vehicles in light of motorcycles passing queing cars in solid white lines. I think the safety case for a bike passing a queue at less than 10mph is the same as car passing a horse at 10mph. Providing they do not pass more than 3 vehicles at a time.

what would you add?

Excellent so far. I'd immediately add:

- 999 for diesel spills (and maybe more; penalties for spillers?)
- SMIDSY research, especially A pillars
- high emphasis on training (especially cornering; too many bend crashes)
- find ways to identify the nutters that bring motorcycling into disrepute
- research on any protective effects that may come from loud exhausts
- special training available for born-again bikers something attractive
- positively no ISA

I'll think about more, and of course listen to any suggestions.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

All of the above, and yes please. Perhaps the transport industry would stop wringing their hands about the cost of fitting anti-spill measures if they were hit in the pocket. I believe an attempt was made to legislate about anti-spill devices on HGV's some years ago but it didn't fly.

SMIDSY is definately caused by huge A-pillars - my 53 plate Vectra has a huge blind spot at the A-pillar. Perhaps thats why Volvo have been researching see through A-pillars.

I would also like to see ALL car drivers take a CBT and a cycling proficiency test before they are even allowed to sit behind the wheel of a car. Perhaps thats a pipe dream, but the CBT could be implemented for all new drivers.

Loud exhausts. They do not really have any effect on safety with the modern well soundproofed car. The only good thing is the lovely noise of a big V-Twin on race cans . I can see that we will be forced to use quiet exhausts all the time, and this pees me off as there is no clampdown on Johnny Boy Racer with a great big chimney hanging out the back of his chavved up Corsa.

Oh, and if bikers have to jump through about 4 tests before they are allowed to ride a full power bike (see pending EU legislation), then why are car drivers allowed to pass a single test at 17 and drive whatever they want. I want to see driving license restrictions for new car drivers, ie a maximum horsepower rating until they reach 21.

There are some others, but I will see what other people add to the thread.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

I wouldn't mind these in theory but I would worry about the cost. Things like this usually turn into a cash cow and are used to beat the poor with. So I hope the cost would be kept down, otherwise it would force poorer learners underground.

True, but, and this is a big but...CBT costs about 80 quid. Compare that to the cost of training and taking your test - quite small I would say. Also there is the point to be made that if the person cannot afford the training to pass their driving test, will they be able to afford to tax, MOT and insure a vehicle?

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

[quote=

Loud exhausts. They do not really have any effect on safety with the modern well soundproofed car.quote]

Maybe not, but they certainly do with pedestrians!

Agree about the V-twins though...

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Fatshoutybloke

But they can hear/feel the vibrations if you're close enough?

I think there should definitely be some hard and fast ruling on filtering.

When I was had off my bike 3 years ago (by a non-indicating right-turner), my first lawyer said that it would be deemed 50/50.

In the end, I won the case 100%.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I don't believe we know that. The point of my comment is that we need better data. Guesses and opinions aren't really good enough. And we need to know soon because euro crap hush boxes are coming.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Fair shout That is the problem we are facing with motoring as a whole as you well know isn't it Paul? Poor/badly analysed data.

It does give one pleasure to break everyones ear drums within a hundred yard radius though.
It does make me chuckle when people are bleating about loud bikes though - have they ever stood next to a HGV or something like a bin lorry when it drives along the road. Enough to make your ears bleed

(edited as one of my emoticons didnt work!)

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

Trouble is that the only reasonable way I can see to gain the data on loud pipes is through experimentation.

If I could get hold of a helmet cam or some such I'd happily spend my days riding round on a quiet bike and a loud bike, but the problem is that there's no 'standard' traffic condition and the data is likely to be affected by the fact that one day you might get more muppets than another day.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I believe inherently that loud pipes are a motor cycle safety device. There may well be a question mark on thier value with car drivers n their cocoons but with regard to inattentive pedestrians they are great. Funnily enough these are normally the very people who thn complain about the noise as it "made them jump".

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

Yep. Find a large group of bikers. Split in two at random. Give one half loud pipes and the other half standard pipes. Run for a few months. Swap the pipes between the groups. Run for a few months more. Analyse crashes (and incidents where possible). Look for any pattern with incident types and numbers that follows the pipe type. Test results for statistical significance. Write up the results.

Job done.

As for the 'large group', that's harder, but several firms' worth of London dispatch riders may do. London may not be typical of everywhere, but it IS a 'hot-house' where crash liklihoods are greatest.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Its certainly worth contacting some dispatch companies to see if they are interested.

I've said before that I've experienced the difference, but individual opinions don't unfortunately provide very good data

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I'm sorry to say that it's way beyond our present resources, both in terms of management time and expenses. The 'easy' way to get such research carried out is usually to 'seed' some university research with some cash (takes £5k to 20k). On a full commercial basis, it'd take something in the range £60k to £150k I expect.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Damn. I don't suppose MAG or BMF have any research?

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Well I'll second your individual opinion on 'loud' pipes making a difference Sixy.

I have ridden bikes with standard pipes (GSX1100-F), and I have ridden bikes with non standard and much louder pipes (Kwaka Z1).
There is no doubt (based on my observation of the drivers actions) that the cager is definately more aware of my presence when i'm on the Z as opposed to the GSX.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Trouble is though, I think in our heart of hearts we all know they make a difference - the difficulty is proving it.

To the outsider we are just making noise for the hell of it.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

On the noisy zorst debate would it be ok to state opinion and welcome research?

I personally don't think the policy document needs to be backed by research for every policy point.

I could refer to Accident demographics and show that riders who choose noisy zorst have a greater crash exposure per mile traveled.. (loose link that says sports bike riders hav more accidents than touring bike riders).

I personally wonder why people don't use the horn? and think any possible safety benefit would be outwayed by the negative 'noisy speeding biker' image.

I would say that an overarching demand is that safety policy should be evidence based.

Therefore the correct 'demand' in this area is for evidence on which to base policy. I'd also suggest that there should be 'no change' to the status quo until proper evidence is available.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I have created a WIKI to enable the policy to be developed collaboratively..

If you are interested in contributing well rounded and researched policy..

Please PM me and I will give you the password...

If you'd like to see what I've done so far:

http://safespeed.pbwiki.com/Safe%20Spee ... 0-%20Draft