Safe Speed Forums

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not opposed to good or extra training, far from, just the idea of raising the bar above the level at which safe drivers could possibly never jump over. If it’s safe to do 40mph around a bend she will do 20mph. If I see a gap large enough to cross a junction she will wait, and wait, until she is good and ready. (What I call dithering). Good job she’s not watching this

Her reactions are slow too, but that’s inherent so I don’t know how you can sharpen that up? She has the reactions of a sloth whereas I am like a cat…

I once hid in a bush knowing that she was due home any minute and jumped out in front of her car like some kind of nut, (as she was driving down her driveway to her flat), flaying my arms shouting “BOO!” She nearly ran me over! Good job I’m good at leaping back out the way too; won’t do that again.

I agree about the frustration part for other drivers but what do you do, ban people who are safe but slow or dithery? I agree that she couldn’t know her limits unless or until she pushes herself to 'the edge' but not everyone is comfortable with doing what you suggest or, as Mario Andretti once put it, “If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough".

What about the older generation, the one’s you can just about see the top of their head above the seat in a Morris Minor? Dare I use the expression “where do you draw the line?” Regular tests each year, like a driver MOT, to make sure you’re up to an expected standard? You would start to find thousands banned as they get into their 50s, 60s and 70’s or others who will just never make the grade. How would this affect disabled drivers; would they be exempt or also have to jump through a 'disabled hoop' version?

I’m not saying you have a bad idea because, goodness knows, I’m always banging-on about better training and education. But I don’t know how it would be implemented, the huge extra cost to motorists on top of already obscene costs, but most of all how I think it will discriminate against drivers who are, or would be, good and safe.

Something which has got us into the sorry state that we are in today is because of ill-conceived plans being implemented before every angle has been considered, or proven for that matter . You could possibly persuade me if you put more meat on the bones but I am yet to be convinced.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I agree with the difficulty and I am being somewhat of an idealist but in few other walks of life would a deadly weapon be left inthe hands of an incompetent person.

Ideally, driving would be a privilege of the competent and the incompetent would make use of an excellent public transport system - but I guess that's never going to happen!

Back to my original point though, I still believe that even your girlfriend should be forced to find out what happens when the sh** hits the fan - it has to open her eyes to the possibilities - even if she fails to master it.

Sorry bud, I’m not trying to be negative and there’s nothing wrong with throwing things into the pot for a bit of brainstorming. Maybe I can meet you half way by suggesting this..

Every test should include some skid practice. I don’t know what they’re called but you know those extra wheels they stick on a car to simulate an icy road? A quick session of that could do the world of good at, hopefully, little extra cost for maybe a quick half hour session. Maybe not even in the test but with the driving schools as part of a compulsory part of the learning?

Going around a track at breakneck speeds isn’t something we have to do in real life but skidding is much more common and when you consider how it could save a head-on crash...

I’ve had to drive my honeybunchkins home from work when there’s been a snow flake on the road.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Well, that would definitely be a very good start

But would drivers cope even better with training? Perhaps then we wouldn't get drivers trundelling down the slip road at 50 mph without any regard for the speed of the traffic they are joining. Drivers would be pulling into the next lane, if conditions allow, when traffic is entering from the slip road. They would be moving into the next lane, again if conditions allow, when a vehicle on the nearside is approaching the vehicle in front and will need to overtake. They would be adjusting their speed, up or down, so that they dont arrive at the same position as other vehicles. All these things not only make it easier for other drivers but keeps you in a safe position.

Whynot

For unjam the rifle -and from what my siblings tell me -it's done slowly at start -like learning how to judge a corner /drive safely - .
How many young kids get followed by Trafpols and not notice ,simply because they are driving above their ability to keep a look out in all directions .
The idea is to fastine lente - and then as confidence and experience build up , fastine a bit quicker ,but not so fastine that centifugal force puts you into the ditch on one side or into the path of a vehicle on the other side of the road .And only experience teaches that .
But don't forget that as said above -get the speed up - and the ability to concentrate on the important things diminishes -that trafpol behind could be a pedestrian in black in front ,just out of the line of sight .And then -there's stooooping distance/what to do if said vehicle skids -the list is endless .( It should be taught on basic driving - but that would cost too much , and Govt can't afford to make our roads safer by addibng it as a freeby)

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I'd prefer that such experiences were suffered under controlled conditions and proper guidance so that the cost of learning from such experiences does not include anyone getting hurt or anything getting broken.

Inexperienced drivers tend to have some types of accidents more than others. If the most likely root causes of those accidents are studied properly under controlled conditions, those types of accidents should tend to happen less often, as the drivers come prepared to avoid such accidents entirely, or make appropriate corrections in time to mitigate the consequences.

As a young driver, I sought out the very 'training' experiences in uncontrolled conditions, that I should have been exposed to in controlled conditions. I, and potentially hundreds of other people, are lucky to be alive. The only other good thing to come of my experiences in uncontrolled conditions, is that, by chance, I've managed to learn the right lessons and become a driver who can either proactively avoid or reactively escape situations that most people should never experience firsthand in the real world.

Some very important driving 'lessons' simply shouldn't be left to chance; they should be presented so as to increase the chances of driving away from such experiences, and in doing so, having learned the right lessons from them. That means more controlled learning experiences.

One other thing: Skidpad training should be done in cars with worn tires and slippery road conditions, not with hydraulic outriggers. A needless expense is avoided, and the lessons learned are visually, spatially, and kinaesthetically as analogous to reality as possible.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

I have never used a skippan with outriggers but cannot see how it can compare to worn tyres etc as you describe above. O.K., it may show to an experienced driver what a skid feels like but I cannot see how you can truly experience a proper skid and learn how to correct it this way. Worn tyres on a slippery surface, as you say, must be cheaper and far nearer to the real thing than anything else.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I have recently fitted new tyres all round to one of my cars (rearwheel drive MR2) and having to make a 60 mile round trip yesterday, I chose the most off track, rural country lanes that I could to make the journey (proved to be the shorter route anyway).

A lot of the roads were narrow "farm tracks" with very little chance of seeing another driver on them, mostly covered in sheet ice or thin snow. It gave me a wonderful opportunity to over exaggerate the braking and acceleration on some of the clearer (visibility wise) bits of icy road in order to get the feel of the new tyres, compared to the poorer previous ones (I was very impressed with their level of grip).

Now I've been driving on snow and ice for 36 years now and in the seventies and early eighties we had conditions far worse than these and I used to do a lot more rural road driving back then but I still feel the need to "experiment" and practice control in these conditions to "refresh" the memory and still make sure that my reactions are up to speed.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

The Skip Barber Racing & Driving School can probably afford whatever tires it wants, but even though they didn't mention it here, I'm almost sure that well-worn tires do more than their fair share of final laps at the skidpad.If someone with 36 years of driving experience still feels the need to experiment and practice driving in inclement weather conditions, it should be fairly obvious that those bereft of driving experience need to learn about that which they are unprepared for even more so. Further, their inexperience strongly suggests how important it is to exert significant control over those conditions. (After all, I trust a driver with 36 years of experience to pick and choose their own times and places to practice and learn, more so than I would an unlicensed learner.)

Nevermind that we're usually talking about kinaesthetically curious teenagers and young adults who are eager to enjoy driving. It should be obvious that kinaesthetically averse or apprehensive older adults who either don't like driving, or don't drive at all, lack the proper experiential insight to meaningfully inform driver education and training.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

The problem with skidpads on a track is that the driver knows that at some stage a skid is going to happen, so he his already mentally prepared for it.
In real life when a driver gets into a skid and is sliding towards another car or person...panic takes over and all that they have learnt on the track is thrown out the window.
So we need to teach not to panic.

There's a strong school of thought that skidpan training is counterproductive (at least for novice drivers) and training them how to avoid skidding in the first place makes much more sense.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I agree with this and obviously once you have experienced a few skids, you do learn to "feel" when the conditions are close to enducing a skid and drive accordingly but even experienced drivers can be caught out on a sudden patch of diesel or black ice and only when that happens, can you do something about it.

if you have experienced skidding before, it comes more naturally without panic. Obviously if you are driving on surfaces which are likely to offer very low traction, you are driving accordingly (hopefully) and making every manouvoure gently and precisely enough to cut down on the likelyhood of losing traction but it's the cases which you aren't expecting, that you need to know what to do, without panicking.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I can't see how you can teach people "not to panic" unless you put them through the process of having a skid (many times), until the experience becomes second nature enough to enable the brain to kick in automatically and do what is required.

Ok, on a skid pan (and also when in a cradle) you are expecting a skid but to correct that skid also needs quick reactions and the reaction to correct can be practised and improved upon once the first "feelings" of a skid are felt (I tend to grip the steering wheel a lot more lightly than when normal driving, when driving on snow or ice, because I feel that I can detect sudden slippage easier this way))

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I disagree with the esteemed Eddie Wren, in this case.
To paraphrase myself ...This is a case where taking an insufficient dose of medicine is detrimental, but because the right dosage seems cost-prohibitive to administer, the medicine itself is mislabeled as 'counterproductive'.

If novice drivers where experientially shown how they tend to cause skids, it would be that much easier to explain how to avoid them.

Again, the vast majority of adults who deride skidpan training are either kinaesthetically conservative, or averse - they don't enjoy driving much, or hardly drive at at all. (Eddie Wren may be an exception who simply believed that he wouldn't get away with plainly and blatantly saying, "they need more skid training", so he said it cryptically, as above and below.)Sounds to me like they need more practice, but what do I know?

I do agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and further, that attitudinal training to that effect is just as important. It's the other side of the coin to skid appreciation.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Some of the panic reaction is beneficial; a sudden and precise correction is being called for.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

wmoore


I can agree that they are not the same, but you do obtain a feel at least, and it is better that not going on a course at all. The operator is pretty restricted in their operation but some do better than others. The methods of 'correction' are the same, it is mostly only the feel that is different, for basic learning experiences.
The learning ability is about little friction in a safe place to learn how it feels at a slower speed. This enables one to learn at the very first moment that the car is beginning to go out of control. You don't learn this in a real skid and inexperienced drivers have the least knowledge and the most to learn.
It is scary to skid for most people as they don't know when a skid can or cannot be controlled or how to. With so little knowledge and little ability it is naturally a frightening experience.
Whilst trying to teach people how not to skid is all well and good, but it is not sufficient to make motorists safe. The inexperienced motorists may need some confidence building on the roads before doing a skid pan course but doing a course sooner than later is preferable.
[quote=wmoore]The problem with skidpads on a track is that the driver knows that at some stage a skid is going to happen, so he his already mentally prepared for it.[/quote]
How do you mean skidpans on tracks? When you go round a race track you will be balancing the car and your knowledge of feel as to the grip tells you if the car is on the edge and if you are about to possibly loose grip. So you can decide to apply appropriate controls depending on your intentions.
If you mean a skid pan set aside slightly away from the race track and that when practicing one will expect to skid then yes but it is controlled and a skid of your making.
[quote=wmoore]In real life when a driver gets into a skid and is sliding towards another car or person...panic takes over and all that they have learnt on the track is thrown out the window. So we need to teach not to panic.[/quote]
There is more to this, when many people start to have an accident (appreciate many failures in attention prior to this) they drive to where they stare and so fail to look for the escape routes, that would have seen them miss or control an exit route.
I agree that this stare is part of the panic and teaching people to look for the escape routes is 'easy' and take practice so that it is second nature when they need it.
Teaching how to drive well is only part of the process, teaching how to cope with skids is another. Part of not skidding is understanding exactly how 'your' vehicle behaves when you start to loose grip. Fail to 'fee' and you miss the first crucial indicator, that you have otherwise already missed. However to control the skid can help you miss the 'target' too and learning how to do that takes practice.
One afternoon of one good skid pan course will give 'one' a life time of skid experiences.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Many fleet training is given to drivers because it is beneficial and helps teach how not to have accidents.
One skid pan course I took had a few drivers from the Post Office, and one chap who I was teamed up with from time to time was there because his Company had sent him. Like me, at first he was apprehensive, but as the day wore on and we understood more and more, we started to understand and then enjoy, and we both learned a great deal.
It gave confidence but not enough that we all zoomed off, expecting to go sidewards up the motorway or anything, it was a serious business and we were clearly 'de-briefed' before going home at the end of the day. We enjoyed it and had fun in the end, but went away with a far better understanding, knowledge respect, and feel for skids and how to make them and how to avoid them. Although we learned how to create a skid it would be wrong to assume that all people will become over confident and behave badly, if anything the reverse is true. By learning how to create a skid you learn also how to 'diffuse' the skid or back out of it.
If enough confidence, good knowledge and appreciation of the topic is taught, then over-confidence and bad attitude will not automatically follow.
I agree to that just because one fears enough cannot be taught is no reason to justify that people should not be taught in the first place.
Encouraging people to learn is a good thing not a bad thing.
People do learn at different rates and abilities, but the courses that I have attended (some were better than others), but even the 'worst' person was better and learned much. Perhaps skid zones//clubs should be created, so that more experience can be obtained than any discouragement.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

algullon - delighted to have you post. Can you send that to me please ?

I agree that good teaching practices are good. I can agree that driving to extremes help teach a lot about car handling and the feel of a car and in safe environments is ideal so should loss of control result no harm is done. But not all areas have large runways to learn on.
I like the idea of having large areas to practice all sorts of car training and handling. How do we best decide what is and is not absolutely necessary as a minimum standard ?
Our UK driving test enabled us to have the safest roads in the World for decades and 'slalom' control was not on it (not that it isn't fun and a good
car control lesson !) I think we have to always be vigilant that 'over-training' also, doesn't become a substitute to try and resolve the bad policies that have brought out bad behaviours in otherwise good confident drivers.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I am all for extra training and education.
I think there is a danger in flooding the 'poor' driver with so much teaching that they don't get time to 'learn for themselves' and learn at their own pace'.
What I think is probably ideal is the 'basic' training to help get drivers and riders on the road with good sound abilities, skills and knowledge.
Then we need to encourage and provide good incentives for people to want to learn because they have interest in the subject. This may stem from their safety and survival to total enthusiasm.
When those added and growing skills are 'added' and learned is another question.
Would we as a new driver / rider been able to 'cope' with certain training just after we had passed the test or a year or two later ?
If we look at stats and see that whilst inexperienced driver do have a sizable proportion of accidents, but what is the cause of those accidents. Does training resolve it and what evidence is there to prove that ? Is that training the best type and taught in the right way?
Do we not need to encourage people to learn for themselves ?
Understanding confidence and attitude in drivers / riders might be key and very necessary before action is taken and implemented.
You cannot train for every single 'event' you teach the basics, so that the motorists 'default' is 'safe'.
So how do we get the basics right ? We learn over years and by the past teaching experiences and results. Looking at attitudes and expectations, the good drivers, who have the least accidents (their habits - they may drive little or a lot), understanding and knowledge is key to trying to provide the best likely solutions.
Targets (reduced accidents or good maximum training) can become the whole goal/s (not good), and so we must stay focused on the real aims, causes and effects.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.