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 Post subject: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 09:46 
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As experienced motorists do you think that flashing lights, especially rear lights, are a better indication of a cyclist's precsence than steady lights? Or do they merely irritate you?

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 14:25 
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Blinking lights do attract my attention, however in the absence of additional illumination I find it is often harder to determine the position, direction and speed of the bike until getting quite close. If anything blinking front lights are worse.

I specifically use 'blinking' as the lights are usually too dim to be considered to be flashing imo, some of the front lights especially so.

I would say using both a fixed and blinking light would give the best result; high quality, bright, fixed lights and a pair of cheap blinking ones possibly.

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 14:56 
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That confirms my impression. I now use fixed plus flashing at the rear and steady at the front. Have to disagree about the brightness though. Some good quality front lamps are bright enough to upset the vision of oncoming traffic. They are not legal for road use but I doubt if anyone has been prosecuted for using them.

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 19:37 
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toltec wrote:
I would say using both a fixed and blinking light would give the best result; high quality, bright, fixed lights and a pair of cheap blinking ones possibly.


:clap:

I agree 100%, this is best of both worlds.


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 20:10 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
They are not legal for road use but I doubt if anyone has been prosecuted for using them.


not legal under what law ?


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 00:03 
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not legal under what law ?


Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (amended in 1994 and 2005) as explained at
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/guidanceaboutlightsonpedalbi4556

The lighting I mentioned post dates BS 6102-2 and thus falls under paragraph 10. It would be illegal on the first bullet point ("It must not dazzle other road users")

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 00:41 
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Quote:
Lighting Regulations

Abbreviated to RVLR: the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (amended in 1994 and 2005) require pedal cycles to have various lights and reflectors fitted, clean and working properly, when being ridden on a public road between sunset and sunrise. Cyclists may also be required to light up in conditions of seriously reduced visibility during the day, but only if they have functional lights already fitted. Lights are not required when the cycle is stationary or being pushed along the roadside.

It has to be said that the fine details of RVLR are seldom enforced; and provided you show some kind of white light in front and red behind you are unlikely to be challenged. If you are involved in a night-time accident however, any slight illegality with respect to your lights or reflectors may be regarded as contributory negligence. The following items are the minimum required, on a bicycle or tricycle, in order to ride it legally at night:
Front Lamp

One is required, showing a white light, positioned centrally or offside, up to 1500mm from the ground, aligned towards and visible from the front. If capable of emitting a steady light it must be marked as conforming to BS6102/3 or an equivalent EC standard. If capable of emitting only a flashing light, it must emit at least 4 candela.
Rear Lamp

One is required, to show a red light, positioned centrally or offside, between 350mm and 1500mm from the ground, at or near the rear, aligned towards and visible from behind. If capable of emitting a steady light it must be marked as conforming to BS3648, or BS6102/3, or an equivalent EC standard. If capable of emitting only a flashing light, it must emit at least 4 candela.
Rear Reflector

One is required, coloured red, marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned centrally or offside, between 350mm and 900mm from the ground, at or near the rear, aligned towards and visible from behind.
Pedal Reflectors

Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.
Exceptions and explanations

Age brings privileges. To name but two: cycles manufactured before October 1990 can have any kind of white front lamp that is visible from a reasonable distance, and pre-October 1985 cycles don’t need pedal reflectors.
Cycle trailers need a rear lamp and reflector; sidecars also need a front lamp.

The Euro-friendly clause

Thanks to a European Directive of a few years ago, wherever a British Standard (BS) is referred to, equivalent standards from other EC countries must now also be recognised, but only if they provide an equivalent level of safety etc. It’s not exactly clear which do. However Germany has arguably the strictest cycle lighting laws in Europe so we consider it safe to use equipment that is marked accordingly, with a “K~number”.

It should also be noted that wherever a British Standard is referred to, that reference applies to a specific edition. In the case of BS6102/3, that is the 1986 edition, as amended on 15th April 1995 and again on 1st September 2003. These amendments removed the filament bulb design restrictions, so that lamps may now get their light from LEDs – or indeed anything else!
Dynamos

Dynamo powered lights are legal even though they go out when you stop. That’s allowed so long as you stop on the left. Usually it’s much safer to stay where you are (e.g. in a stationary queue with left-turning traffic filtering up your inside), since most cars do stop for red traffic lights and those that don’t are unlikely to pay more heed to a bike lamp! Nevertheless: dynamos and lamps are now available with reliable back-up (standlight) features that either keep them on or light up a diode instead of the bulb.
Additional lamps and reflectors

Some cyclists like to fit extra lamps and reflectors, in addition to the approved ones, specified above. This is perfectly legal provided they are the correct colour and in an appropriate position. These optional lamps and reflectors do not have to comply with any standards, but it’s illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector that have specific other uses. You must not, for instance, show a red light at the front, or a white light to the rear, or fit triangular-shaped rear reflectors on anything except a trailer.

The Pedal Cycles (Safety) Regulations (PCSR) ensure that every new bicycle is sold with several extra reflectors, not required by RVLR, but (strangely) does nothing at all to facilitate the fitment of front and rear lamps. These additional reflectors are found on the sides of the wheels, clear white or coloured yellow, and there's also a "white" reflector on the front of the bike. You are at liberty to remove the surplus side and front reflectors, which in any case are of dubious benefit, but be sure to fit the necessary front and rear lamps.
Flashers

Thanks to the enactment of Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 2559: on 23rd October 2005, it finally became legal to have a flashing light on a pedal cycle. Even better: it became possible for a flashing light to be approved, meaning no other light would be needed in that position. And since BS6102/3 does not yet cater for flashing (but is likely to be amended to do so quite soon), approval is for the time being, granted simply on the basis of brightness.

Because DfT very much prefer anything that possibly can be evaluated against a proper technical standard, so to be evaluated: any flashing lamp that is also capable of emitting a steady light is approved only if it conforms with BS6102/3 when switched to steady mode. Since most (probably all) flashing lights do also have a steady mode, and since none of their manufacturers can be bothered to test and mark them to the pernickety standards of one small country on the fringes of Europe, it's unlikely that any flashing light actually qualifies for approval. But since it became theoretically legal to ride a bike with only flashing lights on it, the Police are nowadays no more likely to quibble its legal status than one equipped with steady lights – unless they're rather dim or involved in an accident of course.

If you'd like to read the Department for Transport's explanation, see this page on their website.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/guidanceaboutlightsonpedalbi4556

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4071

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 19:03 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
not legal under what law ?


Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (amended in 1994 and 2005) as explained at
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/guidanceaboutlightsonpedalbi4556

The lighting I mentioned post dates BS 6102-2 and thus falls under paragraph 10. It would be illegal on the first bullet point ("It must not dazzle other road users")


ah ok so its a subjective statement rather than a max output or power... ?


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 21:07 
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The British Standard is prescriptive in specifying the type and power of bulb permitted but the act permits optional non conforming lights which conform to :-

10. Additional lighting to the above mentioned obligatory lights is permitted under certain conditions:
* It must not dazzle other road users
* It must be the correct colour (white to front, red to rear)
* If it flashes it must conform to the required flash rate (1-4 equal flashes per second)
11. Optional lights are not required to conform to BS 6102-3 and there is no minimum level of intensity. So for example, on the rear of the cycle a cyclist may wish to have both a steady red lamp which conforms to BS 6102-3 and an additional flashing lamp which is not meeting the minimum level of 4 candela.

But in normal circumstances it is quite academic because the law does not seem to be policed.

On a side rant. This law, and many other laws, refer to a British Standard. But British Standards, unlike Parliamentary legislation, are not in the public domain and need to be purchased from the BSI. I find it somewhat outside natural justice that one should have to spend money to find out the law of the land.

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 21:23 
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I use Lupines by choice. Nice steady lights. I have a flashing light on helmet .. so I guess that would make me a Christmas tree" - but at least I get noticed :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 07:31 
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Quote:
I have a flashing light on helmet


Which is outwith the RVLR which only apply to lights firmly attached to the bicycle. You are legally allowed to decorate your body with lights like the Rhinestone Cowboy :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 21:36 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
I have a flashing light on helmet


Which is outwith the RVLR which only apply to lights firmly attached to the bicycle. You are legally allowed to decorate your body with lights like the Rhinestone Cowboy :-)



Hey.. you have not heard about the recycled cocktail frocks .. the Swiss girls sparkle in headlamps:rotfl: Yep .. they did.. and with the fishnet and laddered tights .. I have me worries here :yike: Right "in yer face .. sassiness" :roll: And you think Swiss are so .. "cuckoo clockworked"! :roll: Right rebels .. :lol: (Wildy has more stats from home.. interesting read .. she'll post it up either on here or on PH when she's ready. At moment .. she's having a much needed "toes-up" :lol: )

But I like my flashing light on me helmet which I purchased from local bicycle shoppe as "latest in thingy of cycling fashion"

He told me it was legal.. honest he did.. cross me catholic boy's heart here :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 09:33 
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I use steady and flashing on my bike front and rear.

Like other other poster said just flashing makes it hard to determine position and direction, just steady (with the smal diameter that bike lights have) is just not as noticable. This is from experience when observing other cyclists and without doubt flashing and steady makes it easiest to spot them and know where they're headed.

I do note this, and it's signed by that execrable bloke from the "ABD" who I'm sure would sign any anti cycling petition going.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/cyclistredlight/

Are people with that level of photo sensitive epilepsy allowed to drive?


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:29 
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As a pedestrian, driver, low performance motorcycle rider and occasional cyclist, any lights that I can see on a bycycle are fine with me. Usually lights = courteous/responsible cyclist and cyclists with lights normally also wear high viz and helmets.

As a person normally looking at bikes lights, flashing bike lights aren't a problem and draw my attention. They don'y flash slow enough to for me to loose track of where they are. Whether or not flashing front lights are good enough for the user to see where they are going is for them to decide, but if vunerable road users are taking responsibility for their own safety them brill! :clap:


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 13:57 
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Quote:
Are people with that level of photo sensitive epilepsy allowed to drive?


And if they are should we revert to hand signals or semaphore indicators; remove the flashing yellow phase from pedestrian crossings; remove the flashing red lights at railway crossings; put fixed blue lights on emergency vehicles?

No because those are needed whereas cyclist are selfish little pr@ts with no concern beyond their own safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 19:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
Are people with that level of photo sensitive epilepsy allowed to drive?


And if they are should we revert to hand signals or semaphore indicators; remove the flashing yellow phase from pedestrian crossings; remove the flashing red lights at railway crossings; put fixed blue lights on emergency vehicles?

No because those are needed whereas cyclist are selfish little pr@ts with no concern beyond their own safety.



I checked with legal bods .. both known professionally and within family - al legal and medical bods within circle of family .. friends . coilleagues. I gather from all of these that such normal flashing lights would trig only those afflicted to point constant "fitting episodes" as of being "institutionalised/needing supervision as constant"


Flashing lights? I can state that we do not prosecute. We rather folk be seen than not. I have fixed Lupine lights I I have flashing lights as well when cycling. The Swiss girls recycled their lurex/sequined cocktail dresses - and despite the chucklles at them - I have to say they get noticed :rotfl: OK ,, their sense of fun .. combined with fishnet tights.. hi-viz reflectives and flashing lights which make them a right "Christmas cocktail" :lol:

I think we have to be choosy though. I think we should go for the ones we can set to flash on decent intervals as opposed to the eye blink flashes.. just as I can set the twinkling flashing lights on my Christmas trees inside and outside the house :wink:

But no.. I stress we are relieved when any cyclist uses any kind of light. We do not prosecute for flashing lights here. We do not interpret law as meaning such lights to be illegal. :popcorn: I would be most surprised if anyone reported prosection for cycling with a flashing light as opposed to a fixed one. :popcorn: If so - jobsworthy cretin and get good lawyer or CTC as precedent has been established on this. I cannot recall the case .. a "senior moment" of instant recall on my part .. but I KNOW one court set the precedent which CTC lawyers will cite :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 20:08 
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This week's CW does pass the message strongly.


I was going to introduce as thread in own right .. but it fits snugly into thiis one/


CW makes the point that the stats show less cyclist death in dusk hours .. but our stats show otherwise... and we also have high incindent rate in cold "windy nasties with the black ice for effect" :roll:

Anyway

Cw mag wrote:

Ride out after sunset and it becomes apparent that a cyclist is less visible to other road users. Driving a car and seeing an ill lit cyclist doest rather drive a meassage home to these road users


:popcorn:



CW says anything which make s us d stand out is helpful

I AGREE! :yesyes:

CW gives very useful KIT TIPS which are LEGAL

They say cheap LEDS will get you noticed in the sticks but are ineffeictual in rural areas,.

I AGREE>

The mag advocates the investment in rechargeable front lamop at over 20o lumens. Like our Lupines NOT CHEAP .. but weigh up use over many years .. you gets return for cash .. and cash cannot buy "peace of mind" :wink:

CW advises helment lights too. I hasve them. The Swiss idiots do. Those Mad cats do. It gives us that extra ligh to see haead of us on the dark rurals where we choose to live. :wink:

It will help also on urbans. HONESTLY! Cross my heart and die over it all. :popcorn:

VW goes on

[quote]

Back lights. Have at leas tow on the go. :yesyes: :clap: :bow: :yesyes:


Look foir a design which takes in the neglected side angle // so says CW :clap: :bow: :clap:

Leds on helmet make you SEEN in TRAFFIC :wink: :clap: CW WONDERFUL YOU >> GOOD ON YOU! WELL DONE!!!

They also tell us to choose a jacket wiith reflective pipint :bow: To supplement with other reg#felctive products # such as wirst bands ... helmet bands .. sticker .. ankle straps.

DO all of these.. and you WIN any claim against a driver without any stress // HONEST YOU DO!

Why . because you showed extreme diligence and demonstration of such diligence rather adds xtra icing ot the cake in winning the battle against the thoughtless .. inconsiderate who need s a serious wake up call :wink:

I am in side of justice/. I know a speed cam does not solve a problem. Incrreasing awareness of the needs of all other road users counts. Training to do better on the part of all coiunts Encouraging this counts. :wink:



I admit my patch use cams/... I admit we prosecute stupidity/. OTT daftness which we cannot tolerate. Nor be expected to :popcorn: We try to use professional judgements . We try to educate all we pull. I think we achieve a lot in securing safety for all as a result :popcorn:

Some may disagree. I will post a iink to stats and track record to such comment in reply. These are official and now set in stone :wink: :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 20:24 
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Oh dcbwhaley.. i forget to :welcome:

I put forth what CW said here. I happen to agree with their sensible advice. I accept what you say too. So since I post per CW .. discuss whatever to get safety set to rights.


I am off duty .. I chat here. But I will take al suggestioons and give plaudits to source in effort to impove the lot of all road users/

I cannot be fairer :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 22:34 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
No because those are needed whereas cyclist are selfish little pr@ts with no concern beyond their own safety.


Am I? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Flashing Lights
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 09:31 
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by dcbwhaley on Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:57

No because those are needed whereas cyclist are selfish little pr@ts with no concern beyond their own safety.

My spellchecker isn't working. Have I spelled TWAT correctly?


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