Safe Speed Forums

Excuse the plug for a thread elsewhere, but there is a post running on Pistonheads about the councils adding beet extract to road salt over the last couple of years.

If anyone has any comments, experience and more importantly ideas about the best way to tackle the problem I would appreciate any ideas you have.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 3&t=242812

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Troll baiter extraordinaire

There was a small discussion on this here.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... t=molasses

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

The residue from this new formula "grit" seems to result in very slippery surfaces. I have a very powerful RWD car with LSD and I thought there was something wrong with my tyres recently as I was (still am) getting massive wheelspin, unexpected under and oversteer at the slightest provocation.

My 4x4 also understeers badly on this stuff even when the surface looks dry.

I assume it was tested for grip as well as efficacy at melting ice?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

The theory was that the molasses would make the grit stick to the road, and reduce the amount flung up onto vehicles. Don't know if anyone actually tested the stickiness with regard to vehicle tyres passing over !!

Don't know about the roads - certainly sticks to bonets

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

This may be one manufacturer: http://www.safecote.co.uk/index.asp

They publish various 'scientific' materials suggesting that grip levels are unaffected.

I'm looking at issuing a Safe Speed PR. It'd be great to get some hard data. Any ideas?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The more I read the worse this situation sounds. Accordingly Safe Speed issued the following PR at 04:33 this morning:

PR287: URGENT WARNING: Very low road grip widely reported

news: for immediate release

The Safe Speed road safety campaign today issued an urgent warning to all road
users of unusual low grip conditions. All road users need to take special
care because of a greatly increased risk of skidding.

This follows anecdotal reports from all over the country of dangerous and
unusual road conditions. New de-icer compounds may be to blame. Low rainfall
may have contributed.

Drivers and cyclists are reporting that road grip levels are far below norms
and expectations even where roads appear to be dry and temperatures are well
above freezing. Cyclists have reported falling off and motorists have reported
unexpected skidding.

The unusual low grip conditions are suspected to be due to the use of de-icer
compounds that include molasses to stabilise the treatment layer. This
innovation is intended to reduce costs and reduce the need for repeated
treatments.

To make matters worse, reports suggest that grip levels are variable as well
as low. This is the worst possible case because it can and will 'catch us
out'.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "It looks as if a very large and dangerous
mistake may have been made. The use of mollases in de-icer compounds must be
suspended immediately pending testing and investigation. Lives may well depend
on it. All road users need to take special care. Braking distances may be
greatly increased, and cornering may cause skidding at unusually low speeds.
Wheel spin may result from acceleration even in higher gears."

"If the reports are correct - and we have no reason to doubt them - we must
have a public investigation concerning how this situation came about. If the
de-icer compounds are responsible we must test such innovations much more
carefully in the future."

<ends>

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We did notice this - and discuss it to some extent - last year.

See http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12583

I'll just add that I tend to use the roads quite a lot in the early hours, and have found just lately that the roads are worse and worse, I drive a very powerful vehicle and find that my traction control can hardly cope sometimes, my last vehicle was just as bad and it really does feel like the roads are as bad, if not worse when they are wet rather than icy. I think on some roads it's a deadly combination of the new road surface's and this horrid grit, which I should also point out makes the car an absolute pig to clean as it stick's that well a jetwash alone will not remove it without vigorous scrubbing.

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You should try riding a m/bike at the moment. there is no doubt about it the roads have been badly affected by this crap.

Heres some threads from the VFR club

http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/s ... t=safecote

http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/s ... t=safecote

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

Thanks for the PR Paul.

This does become more interesting the more I read into it. Safecote say grip levels are unaffected on the pavement types they tested. That leaves quite a few getout options IMO.

Did they test with UK asphalt? Did they test on all types of UK asphalt? Did they test grip levels under damp conditions a few days post application? I suspect the answer to that last question is no. That's when I feel the treatment is leaving a slippery residue which becomes reactivated.

There is definitely something going on with grip levels in winter the last couple of years as can be seen from the other thread linked to earlier. This leaves a couple of questions.

What is the best approach to have this looked into at a higher level? A letter to Ladyman, the TRL? I'm don't know.

The only problems I forsee is that Safecote is being touted on both cost benefit and environmental benefits and we all know they can be a real barrier to genuine safety.

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Troll baiter extraordinaire

Paul, just a thought, but does any of the data you have show any statistical anomalies over the last two winters?

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Troll baiter extraordinaire

We don't have official 2005 figures yet, let alone 2006 figures. But I was interviewed on the Radio in Northampton a few days ago because they had 15 road deaths in 40 days so far this year - a tragic toll and far higher than normal. Now I'm wondering...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Could it be that our conditions are just not COLD enough for this stuff to work?
It says the TRL tested it - how and on what? At what temperatures?

This needs lookking into and fast!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

My top guess is the long dry spell has allowed the stuff (or part of the stuff) to accumulate in greater-than-expected quantities.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

... and before we race to conclusions, the long dry spells this year and last may have had similar dramatic effects even if your common ol' garden road grit were deployed.... possibly..

I've had contact from Mark Dutton, Managing Director of Safecote - who manufacture the molasses treatment additive.

On the telephone he told me that Safecote was the only additive using molasses, and he also sent me this statement:

"Safecote is NOT used as a neat product anywhere in the UK. It is used as an additive to De-Icing salt at the rate of only 3% by weight. This type of de-icing product is being used on less than 5% of the UK's highways and the Transport Research Laboratory has fully tested the skid resistance properties of normal rock salt versus rock salt with 3% of Safecote and no difference was detected. This report is downloadable on our website."

So if under 5% of the road network is being treated with salt and molassess I think we can eliminate molasses as the cause of the widespread low grip. So we have a mystery to solve...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

did you get a data sheet sent to you, Paul? What mix percentages are on that - and if it is very recent, ask for an older one...

Perhaps some councils are making different mixes (do I hear "the Harry Lime theme" in the background?)

I re-read the web site data.

But I believe that the critical fact is that Safecote simply hasn't been used anything like widely enough to account for the widespread low grip.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Grip seems to be improved after ther heavy rain last night.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.