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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:49 
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Bear with me, this'll take some explaining:

A couple of weeks ago, I had a letter published in the local free weekly, contributing to a running debate about the overgrown roundabout islands on the Blandford bypass. Someone had written in saying that the undergrowth contributed to the main purpose of roundabouts, which is to "slow people down". My reply:

Me wrote:
So your correspondent Paula Andrews believes the overgrown Blandford roundabouts are a positive road safety tool, as "roundabouts are designed to slow traffic...".

Wrong! Roundabouts are designed to enable traffic from several directions to interchange as smoothly and quickly as possible. If slowing traffic down was the goal, a crossroads with traffic lights would do a much more efficient job (imagine rush hour!). No, the idea with roundabouts is that one can pass over them fairly quickly, if you can see that there is nothing else coming.

However, I've often suspected the planting of miniature forests is used to restrict road users' visibility; these days, they even erect fences on the approaches to roundabouts to mask your view of what's ahead (a la Countess Roundabout on the A303). It would seem "Speed Kills" is more important than being able to see.

How can restricting any road user's supply of sensory information make our roads safer? If you take this idea to its logical conclusion, we'd all be driving around in blinkers, so we had to come to complete halt every time we wanted to slightly change direction and turn our whole head to see what was coming. But hey, some off you probably think this sounds like a great idea. Perhaps we should ban rear-view mirrors too.

However I do agree utterly with Ms Andrews on one thing. Hardly anyone seems to indicate properly on the Blandford roundabouts. I've lost count of the number of times a car has emerged from behind the shrubbery without a right signal on - leading me to assume they are taking my turn off - only to turn towards me as I pull out. Now of course if I could see across the middle of the roundabout, I'd have more of an idea where they were going to go, based on which lane they emerged from....


Reply in this week's edition features the following priceless argument (this guy's already written in, I think he may be a bit of a speed kills/militant cyclist type, though I may be mixing him up with a previous correspondent):

Some guy from Wiltshire wrote:
I was interested to read <Johnnytheboy>'s letter about roundabouts. He confusingly mentions signalling right at a roundabout. Such a turn is impossible unless you want to drive through the shrubbery. At every roundabout that I can recall, everybody turns left from the approach road, and then left again at their desired exit. What therefore does a right turn indication mean?


I don't even know how to phrase a reply; this is one of the stupidest misinterpretations of custom and practice I think I've ever encountered, so I'm inclined to just offer to send the guy a copy of the highway code. I just hope someone else picks up on it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 13:19 
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Right indicator = staying on past next exit
Left Indicator = leaving at next exit
No Indicator = underutilisation of road capacity at roundabout due to ambiguity = congestion


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 16:06 
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That's probably the most infuriatingly stupid comment I've ever heard. The guy from Wiltshire, that is, not Johnny's.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 16:24 
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Thanks for making that clear!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 17:07 
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just quote HC....

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/17.htm#160
Quote:
When taking the last exit or going full circle

* signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
* keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 17:58 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Thanks for making that clear!


Well, if it's possible to get confused by idea of going right at a roundabout I thought I'd make it clear for everyone what I mean.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 18:14 
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RobinXe wrote:
Right indicator = staying on past next exit
Left Indicator = leaving at next exit
No Indicator = underutilisation of road capacity at roundabout due to ambiguity = congestion


Except of course that's not what the Highway Code says.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 18:18 
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So?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 18:35 
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RobinXe wrote:
So?


So we need to be clear about what we're saying - just that. I don't know if you were making a proposal, describing practice or misdescribing official advice.

The Highway Code is already completely knackered about this because the text does not agree with the diagram.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 18:43 
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A right turn indicator is going to (hopefully) stop someone getting to the right of me when they want to exit before or at the same time as me. A left indicator should stop someone getting to the left of me when I want to exit before or at the same time as them. No indicator confers no benefit other than that some careful drivers may give me a wider berth in the lack of any information; ofset by the downside that most drivers will do as they please around me and may end up in an undesirable position.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 13:51 
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Is it wise advising people to disregard the Highway Code??

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 14:21 
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jimbolina wrote:
Is it wise advising people to disregard the Highway Code??


Sometimes. But I don't see any of that here.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 14:43 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
jimbolina wrote:
Is it wise advising people to disregard the Highway Code??


Sometimes. But I don't see any of that here.


Rule 162 tell me to signal left if intending first exit und to signal left after passing exit I do not want but before the one I do want.

It tell me to signal right if I wish to trun right or go full circle. It ell me to use the most appropriate lane for where I wish to go.

There ist more meat on the bone in Road Craft too as to how to use roundabout as "expert driver" too :wink:

But jimbolina Liebchen und :welcome: by the way :hello: .. we have report from a court case involving some one we know of .. (Insurance claims - person slowing und preparing to stop for amber light when hit from behind. Other person made fraudulent claim of sudden lane change .. only vehicles' hits were in wrong place for this to have occurred.. und person defending this bizarre allegation warned by solicitors that "depend who judge believe und the Highway Code ist "just a code anyway" :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 15:08 
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Isn't it:
on the approach, signal left if taking a turn on the left of the roundabout, signam right if taking a turn on the right of the roundabout, and no signal if going straight on;
on the 'bout, signal left while passing the exit of the road before the one you are taking (slightly diffrerent to after passing the entrance of the road before - what if the roundabout has an exit on a one-way street?)[/list]


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 16:40 
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Don't you 'love' *sarcasm* when whoever made the road signs/lines on the road has a turn on the sign after 12 o'clock (therefore a right turn) so you go into the lane that is marked right turn, and then find you can't actually take the exit you wanted without crossing hatchings because the exit is actually on the straight on lane... If you get me? The signage doesn't really match up with the markings in the lanes...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 17:23 
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http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/17.htm#160


162 wrote:

162: Signals and position, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise.

When taking the first exit
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking any intermediate exit
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout, signalling as necessary
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When taking the last exit or going full circle
signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.



That's the bit Wildy :neko: is referring to :wink: You signal accordingly.

If you are intending to go straight on . then you should really signal your intent to use the relevant exit as you are approaching it - just to let others know what you intend to do.

And yes Mike .. road markings are not as good as they should be on many a large roundabout. It is where COAST - working along with MSM and PSL really help you negotiate safely. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 17:39 
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We were talking about problems with the Highway Code's advice almost three years ago:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... =1747#1747

And it's still exactly the same. As they said it would be. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 18:06 
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But the HC issue basically boils down to "do you indicate right if intending to take exit 3 of 4?"

As roundabouts have so many different configurations, it is impossible to be dogmatic about this. There are plenty where the traffic flows mean that it makes sense to signal right if taking exit 2 of 3.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 18:14 
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PeterE wrote:
But the HC issue basically boils down to "do you indicate right if intending to take exit 3 of 4?"

As roundabouts have so many different configurations, it is impossible to be dogmatic about this. There are plenty where the traffic flows mean that it makes sense to signal right if taking exit 2 of 3.


I think the crime is one of actual ambiguity (in a place where simple lack of clarity is a serious error).

How can drivers be expected to know what to do when even the Highway Code is ambiguous?

Not mention that the advice in the Code has drifted without any publicity whatsoever. Remember it used to say that when going straight on no indication was necessary at all at a roundabout?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 18:20 
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As a general principle, except at simple 4-way roundabouts, I believe indicating right when entering to be totally superfluous.

If taking the first exit, indicate left. If taking any other exit, do not indicate when entering, and then indicate left when approaching your chosen exit.

Also bear in mind that more and more large complex roundabouts are now being given spiral markings.

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