Safe Speed Forums

I just wanted to bring up the subject of 'Jumping the Lights'.
Because of being involved with RaodPeace I see and hear of many 'reasons' why there are fatels and serious injury. Within this forum we talk about speed cameras, reckless driving, inexperience of driving, etc, the list goes on.
There has been many families with us that have lost loved ones due to drivers crossing on Red.
I would like to know others opinions on this subject.
Thanks

_________________
belladonna
'Wisdom is knowing how little we know'
Socrates

If you dig around there is a thread on the subject covering both crossing as the lights go from green to red and as they go from red to green.

The general consenus is there is no excuse for crossing on red unless it is to make way for an emergency vehicle and then should only be as far over the line as absolutely necessary. Normal observation and anticipation should be sufficient provided the lights are well placed and not overcrowded by clutter such as overlapping sets of lights.

Proper education and training are the key though. Not robotic enforcement which notifies the offender long after they can remember the incident.

We explored some of the issues in this thread:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1155

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm sure that, having read various comments on the subject, the conclusion was that, if there was a serious problem with collisions at a particular junction, a longer all-red phase was far more effective in cutting accidents than red light cameras.

Remember that many red light jumpers are driving unregistered vehicles and couldn't give a toss about any kind of camera.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

What baffles me incredibly about jumping red lights is this:

It staggers belief in me that 'disobeying a red traffic signal' carries the same 3 penalty points on a driving licence as exceeding the speed limit by a small amount

I would invite the views of the great Basingwerk here on this to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Would he rather be put at risk by a driver travelling at 30 mph in excess of the speed limit on a motorway OR a maniac driver crossing a stop line and entering a junction 30 tenths of a second (ie 3 whole seconds) late?

The former is a possible ban and perhaps 6 points; the latter is just 3 points - yet statistically the bloke doing 100mph on the motorway is extremely unlikely to have an accident or cause anyone else to have one; in the case of the latter it'is probably 2 to 1, yet our politicians 'target' the wrong 'offender' ! ! !

Why???

People who run red lights should face disqualification immediately with perhaps the requirement of a retest.

So when enough of us have complained enough about "safety cameras" being sited on motorways and the like, rather than just throwing them away, I'm sure they could all be converted and used at traffic signals.

What do others think?

No.

Because, as I believe we discussed before, the "reasons" for jumping red lights are rarely anything which will be prevented by a camera. The best outcome you can get is punishment which is small consolation if the transgression results in loss of life.

Reasons for crossing red lights being:

Intentional - these people will see the camera and not be caught or they will be for one reason or another untraceable.
Didn't see (lack of observation) - these will be caught and punished but is that what we really want? Wouldn't we prefer to improve their skills.
Confused by poor layout - not saying the driver is entirely innocent in these cases but could the layout be better?
Crossing to allow an emergency vehicle through - would you want to have to fight to prove this in order to keep your livelyhood?

And the more drivers you ban the more illegal drivers you create.

A longer red phase makes the most sense: it won't deal with the red-light jumpers but it will give more protection from amber-gamblers.

Yep. I think this was tried somewhere in the US, changing the phasing was just as effective as a red light camera, though I think they were actually playing with the amber phase. I'd have thought changing the red phases so they overlap would be more effective still.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Yes, it is very dangerous behaviour that I condemn totally, but I can see why drivers are increasingly likely to do it.

In Scarborough, for example, the green period is so short that I often find I am unable to get through before the amber re-appears, and that is when I've been no further back than about fourth in the queue. Even so, I always comply with the lights though this makes me fearful of being hit in the tail by a following driver who expects me to go through, followed by himself - and who knows how many more!

I do suspect that some Local Authorities are adjusting the lights to deliberately create longer delays as a means of being a PITA to drivers and discouraging car use, and I think they're doing more harm than good as a result.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Scratching head]PITA? Something incentive something something? [/Scratching head] I'm sure I get the point, just not what PITA means.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Got one of these right at the end of my journey to work near Albrighton.
At the beginning of my journey however there is another set of lights which favours one particular direction (the green phase is exceptionally long) which is to my left as I approach.
The problem here is that having turned to green and cleared the queue of waiting vehicles it then stays on green staring down an empty road - the phase is about 2 minutes long Its possible to tell when these lights have gone to amber (or guess when they may be about to) because many drivers rounding the corner 100yds or so away see the green (or worse the amber) light and are tempted to clog it to ensure they get through; I watched one guy who was indicating to turn right suddenly realise he was not going to make the turn, change his mind and swerve into the lane to go straight ahead
Being smartly away when the lights turn green in our favour at this junction is often a bad idea, you risk colliding with an amber gambler

pain in the ....

Sorry, I thought that one was generally known to mean pain in the ass.

Actually I would like to see a bit more incentive around - incentive for people to take more interest in driving, and learning to enjoy doing it well, not just passing the test and getting on with it for the next fifty years etc.

Perhaps we may get a bit nearer to that happy situation in due course.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Thanks ed_m and TripleS. D'oh, I should have sussed that one out.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

In London people jump them all the time.

One main reason why you will see someone jump them is when they feel they missed their "rightful" green by a car in front going too slowly, or not leaving room while turning right etc.

Or when the light is green but access is blocked and then it turns red with no progress having been made - it just becomes a free-for-all.

And right-turning traffic - the gap in the middle to wait is just not big enough, and often the first car in the line won't use all available space (no consideration for drivers behind).

In addition:

- Green phases are too short
- Or too long for the other traffic (quite often the case, they just don't change frequently enough).
- Badly synchronised, so going along a main road, they turn red on you (encourages speeding between them to "make it in time").
- Certainly the "2-second gap" is unheard of when crossing a traffic light (stay close as you can to the car in front and get as many through as you can).
- Never even consider stopping on amber if you can go. (Amber is for this approaching the junction from a distance to warn them they won't make it on time).
- When it turns green, go with caution - but that's obvious. Particularly there will still be traffic completing right-turning manouevres.

I had a strange situation on Saturday. I was in Weston-super-Mare and got to a set of lights which was also a yellow box-hatched junction. I passed the signal on green, but then found that a bus had decided to change lanes the other side of the junction and my clear patch of road on the other side was blocked, so I stopped short of the yellow hatching. Then yes, really, I could not see the colour of the traffic light and went when the exit to the box cleared to find I had gone on red. I don't know what the answer to that should have been, unless it was to sit there until I got 'initial road rage' from the driver behind, who could see the signal, when they went green and I still sat there.
Answers on a plain postcard, please!

Thanks, and sorry I hadn't found this thread yet..... still new to this forum, and as engrossing it is, still have busy life.
Thanks for all replies. It came about because one of our members has had a husband killed in this way, and her question was "Why did he jump the lights". I can show her these responses. It shows that there are others who agree with our thoughts.

_________________
belladonna
'Wisdom is knowing how little we know'
Socrates

That's no problem at all.



First we need to try to find out about the attitude (was the driver reckless and didn't care?).

If the attitude seems OK, then we need to find out if it was an observation failure. If it was, then why? Colour blind?

After that it's a general dig around to understand the behaviour. How long had the light been red? Was something going on to distract the driver? Maybe the answers to these would lead to more questions.

I'll place my bet that if the crash was serious, it wasn't caused by a 'normal responsible motorist'.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Actually I have known some sunglasses make it very difficult to see which, if any lamp is lit. Usually affects the green more than the red though.

But I think the biggest problem with traffic lights is the mega junction with so many different sets of lights that it can be difficult to tell which ones are relevant to yourself.

For some time now I've been noticing some traffic lights have grilles or vanes in front of certain lenses - usually the green I think. At first I thought these were an anti-vandal measure, but then somebody told me it is so that people approaching from the conflicting traffic flows can not see the colour of your lights, and thus be helped to jump the gun so to speak.

There are quite a few of these situations around Leeds and it seems to me they are making it difficult for drivers to see the lights that do apply to our traffic flow, which seems less than helpful.

Best wishes all,
Dave.