Safe Speed Forums

On Sunday i had the to drive from S Wales to Brighton and back a journey of almost 350 miles.

According to my automated policing calculator i should have seen a maximum of two police patrol cars, but i saw 5!!

I thought i would share my disturbing story with the world,

Part 1 M4 west, the infamous 40 zone!, no workmen in sight and a heavy duty barrier to protect everyone driving a couple of inches apart at 41-43 mph stress levels started to rise, got through ok and then out of the corner of my eye 2 patrol cars (possibly attempting to mate to produce more? were in a sort of layby with a speed gun waving around from one of them.

Part 2 M4 again another unmanned roadworks with only cones to protect the workmen (not much sign of any work except a few abandoned orange vechiles and a few copies of the Sun and Mirror blowing around) slam on my brakes as this is a 50mph (though area appears to be more dangerous to workmen than the last one, but is 10mph faster?) No sign of any police.

Part 3 Yet more inactive roadworks, though no signs except a variable electronic one saying 50, evryone ignores and goes 71-75mph slightly further apart, this roadworks looks long abandoned possibly forgotten about.

Part 4 The M25 another slow motion 41-43 but this one is more tricky and needs a lot closer driving skills and a lot of changing lanes as you need to keep finding the one thats going 43mph, as expect no police cars here, this is a full auto zone (a good time to relax and concentrate on my other hobby camera spotting), though a few workmen are spotted drinking tea and chatting on mobile phones, nice to see some progress in the road repairs.

Part 5 - M23/A23 to Brighton a lovely clear stretch of road everyone now driving a resonable distances apart, but then on a bend is a police car with you guessed it a speed gun pointing in my direction luckily i have ignored the safe road conditions and am spending most of my concentration keeping to 75mph so i'm safe, phew!, then i see another one a few miles later doing the same thing, glad i didn't relax and concentrate on the road, feel like i am a star as i managed to keep just below the trigger speed, though lots of sharp braking in front of me helped with the second, overtime earning guardian of society nestling in the roadside grass.

Part 6 the return (tea time) so i knew most of the police would be off the road by now and my patrol car calulator predicted zero now. m23 was clear of nusances.

Part 7 M25 to my shock i spotted my 5th patrol car of the day, this one was in a real rush, no using his flashing lights but going a good 10mph an hour faster than us closely grouped together motorists, but a least it was moving, maybe he was hungry or the overtime budget had been reached.
Safely negotiated the dreaded m25 40mph zone though almost hit 44mph as i desperatly tried to gain a car lenght over a 1 mile stretch to get to the exit, just did it and eased down to 43mph in time for the slip road auto policeman.

Part 8 - Cruising along the M4 at 75mph when i had the shock of my life a workman in the other carraigeway no more than 4 foot away from my car working on the centrla barrier, amazingly there were no signs electronic or otherwise asking me to slow down, the oppoiste to my inadequate logical mind would have thought.

Part 9 Break like crazy and take my place in the crawl by the 40mph camera before acellerating like an mad man upto 75mph once safley through the 100 foot safety zone.

Part 10 - On the radio listen to a hideous crime where nobody has been arrested yet and i come up with a radical idea in my head how to beter use the camera waving policemen but realise its just an insane dream, that belongs in the distant past. Arrive home, crack open a few beers and try to lower my journey induced stress to a healthy level, and take comfort that i haven't got to use my car tomorrow.


Days summary: Total police spotted 5, total police doing something useful possibly 1, speed limits broken a few just before and after cameras, resentment toward the police, up again!


Sorry for the rant,

Mr Average Road User

You really do seem to have a problem with 'The Police' don't you? I'm not a Traffic Officer, not my bag at all, but such Officers are essential, and normally dedicated professional coppers who really do care about what they're doing (which is a lot more than can be said for demoralised disgruntled PC's like myself) ....

Would you prefer it if all Traffic Police were removed to other duties then, dealing with 'hideous' crimes as you put it? So when some scumbag in a car kills someone you care about, what then?

I can understand your frustration at what you see to be a waste of resources targeting the wrong people, but please don't start the 'why aren't you out catching real criminals' crap........

I'd like to back you up on this. I'm not a cop - never have been. But my personal experiences of the trafpol has always been good - even though the encounters have led to a few speeding points over the years, they were doing their job and were always polite and professional - sometimes even good humoured. They are needed. A lot more than cameras.

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

The problem with this sort of discussion is that it's all shaped so strongly by where people live and their experiences that are perhaps unique to their area. 'The Police' round here do little to instill respect for speed limits. Only the other day, I went past a parked police van that was dropping some police officers off at the police station, and it set off again when I was a few hundred metres further down the road with no other vehicles between it and me. I drove along at around the legal limit of 30mph, and the police van steamed along the road, swiftly catching me up, then drove along a few feet from my rear bumper until we eventually reached a two lane bit of road where he was going a different way to me at which point he seemed to want to emphasise the need to accelerate as hard as he possibly could whilst passing me in the other lane.

It's really not uncommon to see police cars round here driving very close indeed to the car in front in 30mph limits, it clearly infuriates them to have to trundle along at that speed.

Another example - I once overtook a vehicle that was doing 25mph in a 40mph limit, initiating the move at the point of the speed limit changing from 30mph to 40mph, to allow a comfortable differential without exceeding the speed limit. There was a police car about 10 vehicles behind that I hadn't been able to see in the queue behind the slow moving van, and he immediately put his lights on and steamed along the road to pull me over. He then claimed that I had greatly exceeded the 30mph limit, at which point I had to explain to him that the limit was in fact 40mph. He wouldn't believe me, saying it was 30mph all along the stretch. I then physically pointed to the signs that could be seen, at which point he believed me that it was in fact a 40mph limit. I mean, what is it coming to when the police themselves aren't even aware what the speed limit is on a given stretch of road?!

For those of you fortunate enough not to know the area, large gatherings of police traffic vehicles (volvos, range rovers (no smart cars yet),etc) have been occurring at the police patrol site just before J5 on the M6. ( For officers going there , i believe the access is off the A452)
For weeks now we have had at least 5 vehicle (plus the unmarked , out for the day probably senior offocer) lined up taxi fashion .
Its getting that congested that i've been looking out for a Durham flag on at least one ( well they do need to find out how it should be done ,properly, and without speedcams)and possibly a kendal flag on another( to see how to use discretion).
Is this a national traffic cops rally, or do we really have this many trafpols left in the midlands.

Answers on a post card to the CC,Leek Wooton.

The only reason there's been an increase of trafpol recently is to do with Thursday...

Rumour has it there are less Talivans around too

Good - lets go electioneering., OR

WE MOTORISTS SHOULD.


ASK MR POLITICAL CANDIDATE WHERE HE STANDS ON CAMERAS (BE THEY SPEED/SAFETY OR WATCHNG AUNTY BETSIES WASHING).
SAY - OOPS WRONG ANSWER, I VOTE FOP BLOGGS- HE'LL KISS ASS.

I do have a problem with the police and i blame it all on feeling persecuted when i drive.

I honestly believe i am a safe sensible driver, who has only been caught speeding when i have relaxed for a few minutes in speed/camera zones that defy logic in there placement and new speed limit imposed.

This is causing me to resent the police in general as i feel like i have joined the crimnal ranks since being prosecuted for my own hideous crimes like driving at 58mph through an unmanned roadworks on a motorway 20 miles away form the nearest pedestrian.

This anger is rising daily to the point i resent the police and all they stand for, i believe priorities are wrong/ measuring the police success's are wrong and i see it only getting worse.

I might be a rare case, but as more people get what they feel is unfair treatment at the hands of the traffic police and their cameras the numbers of people like me will grow and it can only be bad for our country,

I am simply losing respect for the police and the job they do, but i sincerly hope i am a rare case for the sake of law and order.

I do get intrigued by the lack of police on M-ways these days, having on occasion driven half way up, down, or across the country and hardly seen any trafpols.

But it was answered by a mate who's in traffic "Motorways? Nah, only go on them if there's a shout."

Which leads me to wonder about these 'T-PAC' things you see on the police fly-on-the-wall docus on TV, where 5 cars box in the 'bandit'. Where do all the police come from? How do they get so many fast response vehicles in one place at the same time?

Another thing that is bad for our country is the blame epidemic sweeping across it. "I blame you, them, this, that, something intangible for my situation, never myself.



The police stand for the upholding of law and order. Do you really resent this, or only when you find yourself on the receiving end?



Well OK, nobody can tell you how to feel about the police, although I'm not sure you are necessarily aiming at the right target.
There is a definite perception, rightly or wrongly, that the forces of law and order are ready, willing and able to tackle the easy targets i.e. the motorist exceeding the speed limit, the home owner who finally snaps after months of persistent abuse and harassment and so on. I belioeve a level of confidence needs to be restored.

I'm afraid i'm a lost cause, one of my kids came home from school the other day and told me how the police had come into talk about anti social behavoiur.

On reflection i am impressed and that sort of thing is a good use of the polices time, but my first reaction was to ask how many he booked for running to fast in the playground!


I instantly undermined the polices authroity without thinking about it, the very mention of the word police just brings a image into my mind of someone hiding in a bush with a speed camera sticking out and a calculator in the other hand! and a rage starts to build!!!!!!!

My own experience.

Cumbria Police is committed to and always has a specific number of traffic cars with responsibility for motorway cover 24 hours a day. This does not necessarily mean that they will always be on the motorway, but they will be able to respond whenever required.

That said, the majority of Kendal traffic dept enjoy the full range of work on the motorway.

But we have to be proportionate as to where to draw the thin blue line. The Southern Sector of M6 in Cumbria J38 to Lancs border (M6 Burton in Kendal - 21 miles) had one fatality in 2004 - a drunken pedestrian. The other roads in the south Cumbria area suffered 13 fatalities from 11 fatal collisions.

Regarding TPaC, it would be wrong of me to detail too much of our planning and technique, but much of the emphasis is placed on directing the subject to where we want him to be - fleeing drivers usually drive instinctively with little or no plan. We try to lure them into our trap if we can. Doesn't always work, but it's an excellent technique when it does, and the safety of the public is prime consideration throughout.


I'd like to be able to offer you some reassurances about our aims and intentions, but often when your mind is made up by a combination of negative personal experiences bolstered by others' often blinkered anecdote, it is very very difficult to turn that around.

However, PCs are not on performance related commision, so we do not give a second's thought to the cash calculator when reporting someone for an offence.

But I have found that attitudes have hardened over the last few years. More and more people in my experience are becoming cynical about police aims and objectives. Over the last three night shifts I've dealt with (reported or charged) 13 motorists for driving offences. I got negative feedback from most of these motorists, and I believe I only prosecute those who need it.

No matter - I've got broad shoulders.

But if issuing a fixed penalty ticket to someone for not wearing a seatbelt, or to someone for not heeding a previous warning about fog lights generates feelings of resentment like those expressed by EnoughsEnough, there's little doubt we're losing our effectiveness to change motorists' attitudes.

I believe the next 5 years will be significant in respect of public respect for police and the law. Our managers need to recognise and work hard at trying to rebuild that sense of respect with a combination of well trained trafpol (and all other Bib of course) and enforcement proportionate to risk or level of criminality.
In Gear's force's stance is not aided by national policy which unfortunately dwarfs most of the beneficial effect of the lone voice of reason.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

EnoughsEnough

I'm probably going to piss you off even more here, but hey I've pissed others off on this forum before now
Are you sure you've not lost your sense of persepective over this whole issue? The police do after all have a job to do, and enforcing road traffic laws is one of them. OK we don't agree with the methodology being used, but we do know it's out there, its not really a great surprise. I managed to accumulate 10 points some years ago - nailed by various devices -, but managed to accept the fact that I had stepped over the line on each occaision; OK I did throw a hissy fit with the cop who nailed me on the 3rd occaision, but came to terms with it afterwards.
The most worrying aspect is the fact that you are in danger of polluting your own offspring's view of the police before they've properly had time to form one of their own. And you never know, they may just turn out to be more resilient to taking a little knock than you are

More or less the same over here. We deploy so tht the lads can respond asquickly as required. Think you'll find full quotas on the roads here 24/7.

Like Ian - we will probably target problem areas proportionately. We all have our "nightmare patches".



Yes - it works well. Especially if managed correctly - and lot of effort goes into ensuring MoP safety and our own safety - we have to consider the safety of our villain too. After all - we want to chuck away the key later on!



True, Ian. We get some of the fall out here - where people tell us to cop "real criminals." We even had a kid caught red handed cycling away from his burglary tell us this Lads here almost choked n their doughnuts over that.... Especially when he allegedly told the Bib who collared him to go cop the speeding motorist who "nearly had him off his bike!"

But "Nuffers" - who are you angry with? BiB of a scam partnership - could have been police operating the speed gun - but some are using civvies. Were you pinged by a tempo Gatso in those road works?

For record - we would have tugged here over 58 mph in 50 mph tempo zone. As it would be 10% +3 - it would probably have been a firm chat over dangers of road works. If it was a 40 mph tempo - then we would prosecute.


We do not go around nit-picking.



True - we don't. Never ever crossed my mind. It is always: "How dangerous is this person to the public and himself if we let him continue!"

Best way of dealing with it has always been with firm, but polite attitude. Of course they will grumble - no-one likes being copped doing something they should not be doing. We all hated it when we were kids - and I don't think we really grow out of it either. Also - most like to retain an umblemished reputation - especially regarding driving licences.



You need this and a thick skin.

Fortunately - I grew up knowing those Swiss "rebels"



Trouble is, Ian, we are now facing positive discrimination in recruitment policy. Of course, we need a cosmopolitan Force to match the society it is policing. But we need folks who can actually do and be trained to do the job. That's what public and ourselves expect. Don't care about gender, sexua leaning, creed or colour - we just want competnt lads and lasses who can be trained to do the job - and we'd rather have properly trained staff than hundreds of CSOs - who can be very useful if deployed properly - but are no substitute for a properly trained and committed BiB.

We are also facing cutbacks in training: shortened courses and fewer or shorter in-service "refreshers and developers." That is something which needs addressing.



We get hammered over the least thing because of the outspoken reputation here.

As stated, we get the fall-out over the dafter policies gripping the country as well.

But - stats speak for themselves. Not just constant "decently competent" performance in Traffic - we ain't that bad at the other stuff - catching proper criminals ...

Come to Durham - "Nuffers" .... we'll have your attitude banged back to rights 'ere!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

A number of issues really do come together here.

Firstly, the public do not draw a line between the civilian led partnerships and "real" police - and as long as the senior officers in forces continue to allow camara vans, etc to be run by civilians but still with "Police" on the vehicle, we will continue to get the flack as officers on the ground.

Also, pronouncements from morons like Brunstrom tar all of us with the same brush.

But you do have to be understanding - often, when issuing a penalty to someone for, say, using a mobile, their anger is generated by an annoyance with themselves as they know deep down the Bib is right - so they get defensive. This is when a sensitive but firm attitude from us is essential.

I know our non trafpol guys get the same flack - and until ACPO realise that the continued "subcontracting" of policing - to PCSOs, SCPs, Highways Patrols, etc - this undermining of the police will continue.

The public has to bear some of the blame though - patience is disappearing generally, classic example today - attended a RTC, closed the road for a number of hours - some kind soul on the other carriageway let local radio know that "the accident is clear but the police are still messing around with their cones". We were actually conducting a fatal investigation - which I'm sure will be appreciated by the family knowing what really happened, and may possibly stop a future accident in that location. By the way, the fatal had nothing to do with excess speed.

well beat this, i went on a 45 mile round trip the other day from bury st eds to near ipswich in suffolk and spotted over 20 gatso's and one mobile police van trap (right behind a gatso) in that distance. ok there is some roadworks for a stretch but that many cams in such a short distance - i'm sorry but its overkill and revenue earning. the mobile van next to the gatso confirms it beyond doubt (i.e. the greed of not being content with the fixed cameras so why not stick a mobile one in aswell)

its no wonder with tactics like this there is such a wave of animosity towards the police and scamera partnerships - they are asking for it!

nearly everyone i know (family, friends, work colleagues etc) has recently had a NIP. my dad has been driving 50 years and never had an accident or a conviction and he just got one for 46mph in a 40 limit. his speedo (on a new-ish vauxhall) is really rubbish and doesnt have incremental lines so is difficult to judge when concentrating on more important things on the road!

Don't worry about pissing me off "i have lost my sense of persepective over this whole issue".

That's whats caused me to seek out this forum to vent my problem.

I know its not right to blame the police entirely for the situation but i do, it seems that 99% of the time i see a policeman it's in a money making situation, not in a crime fighting/prevention situation.

Everytime i see it my resentment grows and my my image of the police sinks a bit lower, quite simply i think the police are a nusicance to society now.

My opinion on whats right or wrong, whats high and low priority just does not match what the police enforce, and i can only go on this forum occasionally due to my blood pressure going through the roof as i read stories of injustice that is plauging safe drivers everywhere.

I don't think I've sunk to the same depths of dispondency as EnoughsEnough but I have to admit to becoming increasingly critical of the Police and understand excatly where he's coming from. This is wrong I know its wrong I was brought up to respect the police and had plenty of positive conact through school cycle proficency, cubs etc etc.

We have to understand that the police are duty bound to enforce laws that are increasingly more to do with a social agenda or engineering than safety, or justice basically fundamental rights and wrongs.

I read an article some years ago relating to the then new phenomenon of speed cameras and agressive enforcement. The article concluded that the more the police were enforcing such things as motorway speed the more they would be viewed as 'petty enforcers of rules' rather than upholding law and order and consequently public respect and support would wane. I'm afraid to say that this is now happening.

We all know that the problems lie with the governement, the camera partnerships and the left leaning industry that has built up within local and regional government but even though we know this because the police have a duty to uphold the laws then they take the brunt of our frustration.

My fiancee reported a, failure to stop a couple of months back, which resulted in her being threatened with prosecution if she failed to produce her licence within 7 days (just moved house everything upsidedown) and a letter a few weeks later saying sorry....no progress. At the same time the local police have spent £16,000 on a sign to tell people that they are the 22nd best division in the country!!!!!!! And I get a 3point speeding ticket for a minor infringement of a rule on an empty dual carriageway and threatened with more severe punishment if I dare to challenge it. Guess what?........do you think I'm more or less inclined to go to the effort of reporting crime and disorder in the future????

Stick at it, keep upholding law and order but please understand why people are getting so frustrated. I for my part will try and direct my anger at the correct target.

Just looked at CE 's post - and also can see Nufs2 point of view.
Had tyres slashed on several cars / paintstripper on another - why - i gave evidence/ reported incidents of yobs causing anti social problems.
Police reaction - sorry - just another crime number.
One mid level officer even went as far as to say that in his opinion, each week(probably on a monday) the Super opened the ideas cupboard and the idea that fell out was adopted for the rest of the week.
Problem now is that County councils fund the police and now scamerati are infesting the county councils and police with promises of money(like some giant type of pyramid sellingso CC see motorists as an easy way of getting money. Add this to the idea that CC now don't have to ask the Counties for more funds, their bit request to the council tax is less and the political accountants are even happier.So everybody gains,
except the motorist, and next election, we'll back off for a few weeks /a month before, pig thick motorist will think we're genuine about getting rid of speed money and all wil be well.
Sorry to say at the election, the british public eat the cake and now we all have to suffer.

yeah but at the election only 20% of the electorate voted for labour.

unfortunately because the safe labour seats are much smaller constituencies than the libdem and tory constituencies we have another term of labour and their policy to expand speed cams massively even more and more all over our roads even though they know the roads are totally maxed out beyond capacity which is the real cause of the accidents. and they refuse most requests from local authorities for finance for upgrading roads.