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 Post subject: Speed camera appeal...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:58 
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A WELSH controversial speed camera campaign could be forced into a major U-turn if a legal challenge to the European Court of Human Rights is successful.

The appeal centres of a person's right of silence and, under British law it is up to the prosecution to provide proof of guilt.

But now it is being argued that owners of vehicles caught by the ever-increasing number of cameras on Britain's roads do not enjoy such a right and effectively have to prove their innocence.

Former Deeside man Norman John Hayes is to challenge the law on which the speed camera campaign, pioneered in the UK by North Wales chief constable Richard Brunstrom, is based.

Businessman Mr Hayes, at the time of Barmouth Close in Connah's Quay but now of Irby, Wirral, was convicted of failing to provide information to the police about who was driving his Land Rover when it was caught doing 42mph in a 30mph speed limit on the B5129 at Kelsterton near Connah's Quay, in December, 2001.

He said that he honestly did not know whether he or his wife was driving, stood trial at Flintshire magistrates in October, 2002, when he unsuccessfully argued that he had done everything possible to try to find out who was driving at the time.

He was fined £150 and three penalty points were put on his driving licence.

His appeal was dismissed, as was a further hearing at the divisional court, and now his lawyer Mike Gray is applying to the Council for Europe for consent to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.

Mr Hayes said that he was required not only to provide a defence, but the burden of proof was placed on him instead of with the prosecution.

"In my case, the magistrates convicted me and when I appealed to the Crown Court they just said that they didn't believe me, based on nothing," he added.

"They just found me guilty and there was no listening to any other point of view. I was not trying to get away with a speeding fine. It simply is not fair."

Mr Gray said, "What we are basically saying is that the present system is a breach of Article Six of European Convention on Human Rights - the right of silence and the right not to self-incriminate."

When cameras catch a vehicle speeding, they are not immediately stopped. Police send out what are known as Section 172 notices to the registered keepers, requiring them to say who was driving the vehicle at the time.

If the information is not provided, the registered keeper is prosecuted for failing to provide the information.

There is a "due diligence" defence where vehicle owners can be cleared if they can prove that they have done everything reasonably possible to try and establish who the driver was.

"Laughably, it has been held that terrorists have the right of silence and not to incriminate themselves but motorists do not," said Mr Gray.

"We have exhausted our domestic remedies and we are now appealing to the Council for Europe to hear this issue."

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news ... _page.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 08:08 
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:D

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Last edited by ILOVEDRIVING on Fri Nov 12, 2004 21:46, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 20:21 
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Who's Mr Grey?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:41 
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Mr grey is mentioned in the text above

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:11 
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xv16 wrote:

There is a "due diligence" defence where vehicle owners can be cleared if they can prove that they have done everything reasonably possible to try and establish who the driver was.

"


If I remember correctly it is "resonable diligence", which requires lower standard or proof.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 17:09 
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All the money gained from cameras should now be put into bridges or tunnels so that people need not cross the road especially at bars and pubs also at busy crossings instead of the crossings themselves.
Zebra crossings need to be scrapped; they are dangerous.

Provide under road tunnels.

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Last edited by ILOVEDRIVING on Wed Dec 01, 2004 08:12, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 17:21 
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I would like to see realistic road improvements and better public safety
instead of money making schemes.
Splitting the problem of pedestrians and drivers; providing guaranteed safer ways to get past roads on foot must be an improvement.
Where I live. There have been a number of accidents involving youngsters on an A Road going right through the estate. But the local authority refuses to provide safe solutions.
All they have done is place a speed camera instead.

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Last edited by ILOVEDRIVING on Wed Dec 01, 2004 08:09, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:27 
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ILOVEDRIVING wrote:
I habitually use Capitals I do not intend to shout.
Capitals are clearer.
Rubbish, capitals are a nightmare to read on a screen.

I appreciate your sentiment here, but you come across as a bit of a raving mentalist, TBH. You might want to calm down a bit mate.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 18:42 
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:lol:

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Last edited by ILOVEDRIVING on Fri Nov 12, 2004 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 19:26 
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ILOVEDRIVING wrote:
I habitually use Capitals I do not intend to shout.
Capitals are clearer.

Capitals provide emphasis for individual words or short phrases.

But it's generally reckoned that lower case is much easier to read.

That's why the place names on road signs are lower case with initial capitals, btw.

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Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 21:19 
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"Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools."


I LIKE THIS!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 00:21 
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ILOVEDRIVING wrote:
I habitually use Capitals I do not intend to shout.
Capitals are clearer.
:lol: You've seen my handwriting haven't you? In fairness though, I'm with the majority on all caps. A lot easier to read on my postcards, but hard work on the screen. A lot of people will scroll straight down through an all caps post and skip whatever it is you're saying. Bit of a bugger if you've made a good point and people miss it.

Sorry if it sounds like you're getting a hard time from people who are on the same side as you, but I have another request. Any chance you can remove the image from you sig or make it a lot smaller? I'm on dial-up and likely to remain so for some time, and it makes the page take ages to load when there's an image in half the sigs.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 13:28 
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:P

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Last edited by ILOVEDRIVING on Wed Dec 01, 2004 08:08, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 13:36 
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Quote:
EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH
SUPPORT HUMAN RIGHTS


But let's not support the right of free shouting. The noise laws are good ones if sensibly enforced. I wish they existed in fora sometimes.


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