Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Mon Feb 02, 2026 11:47

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 08:05 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 19:50
Posts: 3369
Location: Lost in the Wilderness
Just thought I'd post this :)

Daily Telegraph

Quote:
Speeding laws face human rights test
By Joshua Rozenberg, Legal Editor
(Filed: 04/09/2006)

Motorists' rights are being infringed by anti-speeding laws, senior human rights judges will be told at a hearing this month.

The European Court in Strasbourg will examine section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which requires the registered keeper of a vehicle to say who was driving at the time it was caught by a speed camera. If the challenge is successful, it could punch a major hole in laws that raise millions of pounds in fines every year.

The court will be told that a vintage Alvis belonging to Idris Francis, 66, a retired company director from West Meon, Hants, was photographed being driven at 47mph in a 30mph area of Surrey in June 2001.

Francis refused to say who was driving the car and was fined £750 with £250 costs and three penalty points.

The judges will also consider the case of Gerard O'Halloran, 72, from London, who admitted driving a car seen travelling at 69mph on the M11 in Essex where a temporary speed limit was 40mph. He later tried to have his confession excluded but was fined £100 for speeding with £150 costs and six penalty points.

Francis complains that being compelled to provide evidence of the offence he was suspected of having committed infringed his right not to incriminate himself.

O'Halloran complains that he was convicted because of a statement he made under threat of a penalty similar to that for the speeding offence.

Both men claim there has been a breach of the right to a fair trial and the presumption of innocence under Article 6 of the Human Rights Convention.

The two motorists are being represented by the human rights organisation Liberty.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:09 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 15:05
Posts: 1225
Location: Glasgow
This report doesn't really put the case in a good light. In the current climate there will be plenty who will simply accuse Idris and Gerard of trying to get off on a technicality. The idea that an offence has to be proven in law for it to be deemed to have actually happened is something too complicated for most of the masses to uderstand.

:x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 07:41 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/ ... 27,00.html

Quote:
Drivers challenge spy camera law

Two motorists say human rights are being breached - and their case in Strasbourg this week could affect millions

Mark Townsend, legal affairs correspondent
Sunday September 24, 2006
The Observer

The controversy over speed cameras will be reignited this week with a legal challenge that could overturn the government's ability to raise millions of pounds in traffic fines each year.

The European Court in Strasbourg will hear evidence that UK motorists' rights are being undermined by anti-speeding laws. Senior human rights judges will be told that existing laws - which require vehicle owners to disclose who was driving at the time the vehicle was pictured by a speed camera - breach a fundamental tenet of British justice, namely the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.

If the challenge, brought by the human rights group Liberty against the British government, is successful then it would seriously impair the usefulness of Britain's 6,000 roadside cameras in catching speeding motorists. Lawyers for Liberty claim that an individual's 'right to silence' is a vital cornerstone of the law.

Last year, 2 million drivers were caught by speed cameras, resulting in fines of around £120m. Campaigners claim many drivers are penalised for momentary lapses of concentration and that the sums generated by speed camera fines are essentially a 'hidden tax' against Britain's 34 million motorists.

Edmund King, executive director of the RAC Foundation, said: 'This is a high-profile, important case whose outcome may affect millions [of people].'

At the hearing on Wednesday, 17 judges inside the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights will be told that motorists caught speeding by camera have an expectation to be protected by their right to silence.

The case centres on two motorists who objected to their fines. Judges will be told that a vintage Alvis belonging to Idris Francis, 66, was photographed being driven at 47mph in a 30mph area in Surrey in June 2001.

Francis, a retired company director of West Meon, Hampshire, refused to say who was driving and was fined £750 with £250 costs and three penalty points. He complains that being compelled to provide evidence of the offence he was suspected of having committed infringed his right not to incriminate himself.

His 1938 Alvis Speed 25, which was caught on the speed camera, has appeared in the Ruth Rendell Mysteries television series and was driven by Nigel Havers in The Charmer. Whether Francis will drive it to Strasbourg for this week's hearing has yet to be decided.

The judges will also consider the case of Gerard O'Halloran, 72, from London, who admitted driving a car at 69mph on the M11 in Essex where a temporary speed limit restricted vehicles to 40mph. He later tried to have his statement excluded but was fined £100 for speeding with £150 costs and six penalty points. O'Halloran claims that he was convicted because of a statement he made under threat of a penalty similar to that for the speeding offence.

James Welch, legal director for Liberty, said it was essential that the laws were clarified to protect the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial. Welch added: 'Clearly there is no human right which allows drivers to travel over legal speed limits.

'Rather, the principle we are defending is that no one should be forced to convict himself by his own mouth under threat of criminal sanction. Unless we are willing to overlook 300 years of common law, motorists too must have a fair trial in which they are innocent until proven guilty'.'

Campaigners argue that the UK is one of the most difficult countries in Europe in which to maintain a clean driving licence. Nearly a million motorists are on the brink of a ban because they have racked up penalty points, a recent study found. Experts predict that if the challenge to section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is successful, the police's power to use cameras to catch speeding drivers will be severely curtailed.

(my bold)

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 08:19 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
r11co wrote:
This report doesn't really put the case in a good light. In the current climate there will be plenty who will simply accuse Idris and Gerard of trying to get off on a technicality. The idea that an offence has to be proven in law for it to be deemed to have actually happened is something too complicated for most of the masses to uderstand.


Which is why it's a good thing that it is being backed by Liberty. :wink:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:01 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex
Quote:
.......must have a fair trial in which they are innocent until proven guilty'.'

should of course read
Quote:
must have a fair trial in which they are presumed innocent until proven guilty'.'


I've not checked the transcript for correctness I hasten to add. I'm saying that the latter version is the one that stands the test of time.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 20:21 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
I think it is realistic to state that it is the politiceans and police who constantly preach to the press (who ought to show a bit more sense and consideration) about the "technicalities" and "loopholes", when they ought to mention that it is about the RIGHTS of the PEOPLE to have a fair trial, where the evidence against the accused is NOT obtained by THREATS and INTIMIDATION and where the people of this country should have AT LEAST the same civil rights as those in the other MEMBER STATES of the EUROPEAN UNION.

I thought, long ago, that the police were there to uphold the law of the land, not to make their own up to suit themselves and not to threaten and browbeat the public who they serve.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 21:54 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
My wife's car - registered in my name - was allegedly photographed leaving Kendal at 7.00 am, travelling towards Windermere.
We LIVE in Windermere, and work in Staveley. At 7.00 am my wife would not usually be up, let alone travelling in the wrong direction.
Then I noticed the DATE on the NIP.
I was in the clear... we were on holiday in France at the time - it must just be a simple step to check the picture to see what the number/model/colour was, and correct the mistake.

WRONG! I was treated as a liar and a cheat, and asked to question my relatives to see if they had used our car - even though the had their own cars, AND had no reason to be in Kendal at 7.00 am.
ONLY when I suggested they sent a forensics team to see if the car had been stolen and returned did they begrudgingly decide NOT to prosecute.
This case clearly shows undue pressure is put on a owner, and you are constantly told "You must name the driver!". They dont seem to be able to comprehend that you MIGHT be innocent, or genuinely do not know who the driver is!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:21 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Safe Speed issued the following PR at 11:12am today:

PR363: ECHR: Speed Cameras: And so the wait begins

news: for immediate release

After the brief hearing at Strasbourg before 21 judges, the long wait for a
verdict begins.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "And so the long wait for an important verdict
begins. Of course it's still open to Department for Transport to do the right
thing and pull the plug on the failed speed camera programme immediately."

Idris Francis rang me from outside the court and said: "It seemed to go well.
Our barrister was absolutely brilliant, while the government barrister seemed
to be clutching at straws."

<ends>

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:37 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 19:50
Posts: 3369
Location: Lost in the Wilderness
SafeSpeed wrote:
Idris Francis rang me from outside the court and said: "It seemed to go well.
Our barrister was absolutely brilliant, while the government barrister seemed
to be clutching at straws."<ends>


That's boosted my confidence a bit.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:42 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:22
Posts: 2618
How long is it likely to take to hear the verdict?

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:44 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 19:50
Posts: 3369
Location: Lost in the Wilderness
Sixy_the_red wrote:
How long is it likely to take to hear the verdict?


From what I read this morning it could take a couple of months.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:27 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:22
Posts: 2618
Dixie wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
How long is it likely to take to hear the verdict?


From what I read this morning it could take a couple of months.
:?

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 13:18 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 16:42
Posts: 45
Location: Cardiff
They need to give our government a chance to fudge the law again before passing down judgement :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 14:22 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)
I've been nervous all morning.

Particularly since 5 live and R4 seemed to paint Francis and O'Halloran as a couple of eccentrics and playing down their chances of success.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 19:01 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 15:49
Posts: 393
So how does this work? Each side gives a brief presentation to the judges, and then they go away and think about it for a few months?

What about any follow-up questions to the defence and prosecution, and so forth?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 21:52 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Tagged this in here rather than start a new thread ,as possibly every SCP and his dog will be going to press with quotes like "Speed camera defeat 'will raise danger'" as per Coventry Evening telegraph tonight

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100n ... warksnews/

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 15:35 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 22:02
Posts: 3266
raking up another old thread :wink:
There are a number of court cases adjourned pending this result to mid January, was that a wild guess or is there a firm date that we are working to?

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 15:38 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
anton wrote:
raking up another old thread :wink:
There are a number of court cases adjourned pending this result to mid January, was that a wild guess or is there a firm date that we are working to?


There's no date yet, but we have been promised 30 days' warning of the verdict. So the most we can say right now is 'more than 30 days' to go.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 16:04 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 15:49
Posts: 393
Once the verdict finally is announced, can whoever loses lodge an appeal against it? And if so, could this whole process go on and on, and not be resolved for a good few years yet?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 16:48 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
orange wrote:
Once the verdict finally is announced, can whoever loses lodge an appeal against it?


No. There's no higher court to appeal to. It's already at the top of the tree.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.111s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]