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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 20:39 
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Hi Mike,

Special Constables ..fine do a worthwhile job FREE in their OWN community. PCSOs are a waste of time in my opinion.
I hope you may be able to explain to me..

Why have them instead of paying professional people to be Police Officers... if they are here to support communities why do they roam the streets in gangs, doing very little. ..

I feel that they struggle in the communities where extra policing is needed. What we need is Police not people walking around doing very little -they have NO power of arrest...and can only issue FPNs for the most minor offences...so why have em ???

They now have Traffic PCSOS s.. why the idea was supposed to be Community police support..not harrass the motorists !!!

This whole idea of people wanting to be policemen but not being policemen does not make any sense to me...

If we can spend £22000.00 on people who can do little..why not pay a police man ..yes a real police man...this whole PCSO idea is ridiculous..they are everywhere...lots of recruitment for these people..why not recruit real police men ??? please explain someone !!!

Surely all this wasted money would be better spent on REAL Police officers


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 20:44 
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PCSOs are not sworn in front of a magistrate...because they are not holders of the position of Constable...

They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance

They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

They power of a constable cannot be given to the public by a Chief Con..

except in Sussex :evil: :evil: :evil: it would appear :D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 21:42 
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Sussex Police,
http://www.portia.org/chapter12/ashley.html
The CC resigned before he could be disaplined/sacked to save his pension.

I'm afraid there is a lot I would like to say about Sussex Police but unfortunately, none of it would be constructive.

The main problem the Police have is the public no longer want any contact with them, as their role has slowly changed from maintaining law and order, to enforcing legislation.

You may ask whats the difference, so an example.
I live close to a decaying seaside town, which has an alcohol prohibition zone, so on a summers afternoon I can't buy a can of beer in the off licence and drink it walking to the beach.
This zone was brought in to quell 'problem drinking', what was wrong with the existing laws, 'drunk and disorderly', Breach of the Peace' etc.
So if I have an open vessel containing alcohol I have committed the offence, my actions wouldn't really need police action as I was not causing a 'problem', but as I would be committing an offence I must be punished, perfect job for PCSO's

In the Isle of Man I saw a sign in a park "It is an offence to continue to consume alcohol here having been asked to desist by a constable" or similar wording, so having a civilised picnic with a bottle of wine would be no problem, but shouting abuse cradling a 3lt bottle of cider could be different.

doing the math

PCSO x 3 = £66,000 pa
PC x 2 = £66,000 pa

2/3rds of the number being twice as effective seems a bargain to me.

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 15:07 
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Honestandy wrote:
PCSOs are not sworn in front of a magistrate...because they are not holders of the position of Constable...

Correct

Honestandy wrote:
They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance
They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

Wrong, powers are designated by the Chief Constable and include powers from the Police Reforn Act 2002 and SOCAP.

Honestandy wrote:
They power of a constable cannot be given to the public by a Chief Con..

except in Sussex :evil: :evil: :evil: it would appear :D


Many of the powers designated include the power of constable


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 16:52 
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Big Si

Honestandy wrote:
They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance
They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

Wrong, powers are designated by the Chief Constable and include powers from the Police Reforn Act 2002 and SOCAP.

SOCAP and police reform act DO NOT give the Chief Con. the power to give you any authority he cannot bestow on any member of the public at large.

Honestandy wrote:
They power of a constable cannot be given to the public by a Chief Con..

except in Sussex :evil: :evil: :evil: it would appear :D


Many of the powers designated include the power of constable[/quote]

The power of Constable is given by the Magistrate at the attestation, not a Cheif Constable.

PLEASE QUOTE US SOME LEGAL REFERANCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS
PCSO 879 tried for about 10 pages but couldn't, can you do better.
BTW do you work for SOCA (if not why are you quoting it).

Mike, see what we mean about them spouting off nonsense, without giving legal references.

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 17:02 
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If, as pcso879 stated, the CC can give a PCSO whatever powers he likes AND a pcso is cheaper than a constable THEN why aren't all the CCs getting rid of ALL the cops and replacing them all with PCSOs?

Armed response PCSOs anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 17:29 
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MrsMiggins wrote:
THEN why aren't all the CCs getting rid of ALL the cops and replacing them all with PCSOs?


I reckon that’s eventually how it’s all going to end up. They’re slowly replacing the Police under the pretence that they’re introducing PCSO’s to help the police, the police will slowly disappear. It was on the news on Thursday how one force had made a few of its police officers redundant. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 20:35 
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is it not a fact that HATO's budget was overspent, due to the vehicles that they purchased :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 20:36 
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I warned you all !!!!

They think they all work for SOCAP, and are now inventing powers to give themselves well ...some power...

All very strange,

PCSOs should be got rid of not real police officers ???

how can that be justified while they take these PCSOs on..and the money they are on £22000.00 for as one police man put it ...SOD ALL !!!

This is nonsense...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 21:12 
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quote="Armed response PCSOs anyone?

God forbid..I would be the first one that they shoot :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 21:15 
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nah

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Last edited by camera operator on Fri Oct 13, 2006 22:44, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 21:50 
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Nah........


Last edited by Honestandy on Fri Oct 13, 2006 23:31, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 21:57 
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Honestandy wrote:
PCSOs are not sworn in front of a magistrate...because they are not holders of the position of Constable...

Correct

Honestandy wrote:
They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance
They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

Wrong, powers are designated by the Chief Constable and include powers from the Police Reforn Act 2002 and SOCAP.

making up powers for themselves....

by the way.. example...my house has been burgled..ive been injoured would I want the Police to deal with it..or PCSOs ...

Well not a PCSO..you have NO powers !!!! most ridiculous

what is this stupid idea,,,..???????? PCSOs £22000.00 for FPNs come on ...

have one of you PCSOs nicked anyone ??? well what is the point in me paying for you !!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 14:25 
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fatboytim wrote:
Big Si

Honestandy wrote:
They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance
They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

Wrong, powers are designated by the Chief Constable and include powers from the Police Reforn Act 2002 and SOCAP.

SOCAP and police reform act DO NOT give the Chief Con. the power to give you any authority he cannot bestow on any member of the public at large.

Honestandy wrote:
They power of a constable cannot be given to the public by a Chief Con..

except in Sussex :evil: :evil: :evil: it would appear :D


Many of the powers designated include the power of constable


The power of Constable is given by the Magistrate at the attestation, not a Cheif Constable.

PLEASE QUOTE US SOME LEGAL REFERANCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS
PCSO 879 tried for about 10 pages but couldn't, can you do better.
BTW do you work for SOCA (if not why are you quoting it).

Mike, see what we mean about them spouting off nonsense, without giving legal references.

fatboytim[/quote]

The powers are orginated in the PRA 2002, various amendments to bvarious acts give the power of constable such as anti socialbehaviour act 2003 SOCAP

The Chief Constable designates the person as a PCSO, and as such the PCSO must carry a designation card with these powers on, just as a Constable must carry a Warrant card to show they are warranted.

The Chief Constable's powers are designated by section 38 of the Police Reform Act 2002.

It is the Chief Constable who decides what powers are designated

I don't work for SOCPA (not to be confused with SOCAP) I am a PCSO.


Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 17:40 
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Ah..

So what you are saying is the Chief Con can designate certain powers to you.

Such as anti social behaviour ..taking alcohol off the youths and stuff like that... oh and nearly forgot speeding !!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

but none of this gives any PCSO ANY powers of arrest.

You may detain someone..(ask them to stand with you for 30 mins :D )

I still dont see the point... I also wonder how you would fair if you DID arrest someone .. as anyone of us can for say theft to find the charge refused at the nick by the custody sergeant ???


I still see no reason to have PCSOs ..we may as well have real PCs

£22000.00 is a lot of pennies for glorified traffic wardens. !!!

PCSOs YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY POWER OF ARREST..MORE THAN THE NORMAL MAN IN THE STREET.. end of story..!!!!!

You are powerless to arrest on suspicion, powerless to do very much except take ale off kids it would appear.

If you think otherwise ..please quote the law that gives you any power of arrest....


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 17:47 
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Its not just me that thinks PCSO s is waste read this !!!! :D :D

http://pcsos-national.co.uk/mirror.html

Best laugh I have had in ages I am wrong ??? all these other people

PCSOS TRUTH hurts..you are a waste quote Dail Mirror

Included on their own website... Pcs watch out theyre taking over !!!!


Many of the powers designated include the power of constable

PCSOs this rubbish..you are not Constables...you cannot be attested to be a Constable unless YOU ARE A Constable..

They have no powers and accordingly do not swear an oath of allegiance
They are powerless...except for the ODD minor FPN...

This is all you can do....No Power of arrest..you are wrong...



If you want Constable powers go and join the Police....

What is point in having Consstables if we give you their powers...

This is whole idea should be scrapped..but it probably wont ..whilst they can get daft people to risk life and limb for £22000.00 with no powers ..great deal for them.. !!!! no wonder they want more they dont even give Cs, Batons, or vests..how wonderful what a saving...

You still havent answered my question who have you nicked probably no one..you would get laughed out of the nick...

This whole scheme is one big joke..at the taxpayers expense. !!!

Quote me the law that gives you the power to nick people ???


I doubt you can.... cos it dont exist :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 18:05 
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big-si, the point both myself and fatboytim are making is that the powers that can be designated to a PCSO by the CC are not 'whatever he likes' but are 'whatever he likes where those powers are specified as being allowed to be designated to a PCSO'.

There is a vast difference between these 2 descriptions, a fact which many new posters seem unable to grasp. We have been told numerous times that a PCSO can be given ANY powers the CC desires, and that's simply not true, AFAIK. If it is true, please tell us where in law it is laid down. (Please don't direct us back to Part 1, Chapter 2 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and quote the bit where SOCA staff can be given the powers of constables, 'cos pcso879 already did that, and he's still wrong!)

Can I also ask that both you and honestandy try to get the hang of the quote feature please? It's very difficult to follow the discussion when the quotes are merged in with the replies. Try previewing new posts before hitting submit, so you can see if the formatting is right first.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 18:29 
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Big si are you talking about the 'any person' powers.

Here are the powers a CC can give you under the PRA chapter and verse in full.
PART 1
COMMUNITY SUPPORT OFFICERS
Powers to issue fixed penalty notices

1 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have the powers specified in sub-paragraph (2) in relation to any individual who he has reason to believe has committed a relevant fixed penalty offence at a place within the relevant police area.

(2) Those powers are the following powers so far as exercisable in respect of a relevant fixed penalty offence-

(a) the powers of a constable in uniform and of an authorised constable to give a penalty notice under Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (c. 16) (fixed penalty notices in respect of offences of disorder);

(b) the power of a constable in uniform to give a person a fixed penalty notice under section 54 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (fixed penalty notices) in respect of an offence under section 72 of the Highway Act 1835 (c. 50) (riding on a footway) committed by cycling;

(c) the power of an authorised officer of a local authority to give a notice under section 4 of the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 (c. 20) (fixed penalty notices in respect of dog fouling); and

(d) the power of an authorised officer of a litter authority to give a notice under section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (c. 43) (fixed penalty notices in respect of litter).

(3) In this paragraph "relevant fixed penalty offence", in relation to a designated person, means an offence which-

(a) is an offence by reference to which a notice may be given to a person in exercise of any of the powers mentioned in sub-paragraph 1(2)(a) to (d); and

(b) is specified or described in that person's designation as an offence he has been designated to enforce under this paragraph.

Power to detain etc.

2 (1) This paragraph applies if a designation applies it to any person.

(2) Where that person has reason to believe that another person has committed a relevant offence in the relevant police area, he may require that other person to give him his name and address.

(3) Where, in a case in which a requirement under sub-paragraph (2) has been imposed on another person-

(a) that other person fails to comply with the requirement, or

(b) the person who imposed the requirement has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the other person has given him a name or address that is false or inaccurate,

the person who imposed the requirement may require the other person to wait with him, for a period not exceeding thirty minutes, for the arrival of a constable.

(4) A person who has been required under sub-paragraph (3) to wait with a person to whom this Part of this Schedule applies may, if requested to do so, elect that (instead of waiting) he will accompany the person imposing the requirement to a police station in the relevant police area.

(5) A person who-

(a) fails to comply with a requirement under sub-paragraph (2),

(b) makes off while subject to a requirement under sub-paragraph (3), or

(c) makes off while accompanying a person to a police station in accordance with an election under sub-paragraph (4),

is guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(6) In this paragraph "relevant offence", in relation to a person to whom this paragraph applies, means any offence which is-

(a) a relevant fixed penalty offence for the purposes of the application of paragraph 1 to that person; or

(b) an offence the commission of which appears to that person to have caused-

(i) injury, alarm or distress to any other person; or

(ii) the loss of, or any damage to, any other person's property;

but a designation applying this paragraph to any person may provide that an offence is not to be treated as a relevant offence by virtue of paragraph (b) unless it satisfies such other conditions as may be specified in the designation.

Power to require name and address of person acting in an anti-social manner

3 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, in the relevant police area, have the powers of a constable in uniform under section 50 to require a person whom he has reason to believe to have been acting, or to be acting, in an anti-social manner (within the meaning of section 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) (anti-social behaviour orders)) to give his name and address.

(2) Sub-paragraphs (3) to (5) of paragraph 2 apply in the case of a requirement imposed by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) as they apply in the case of a requirement under sub-paragraph (2) of that paragraph.

Power to use reasonable force to detain person

4 (1) This paragraph applies where a designation-

(a) applies this paragraph to a person to whom any or all of paragraphs 1 to 3 are also applied; and

(b) sets out the matters in respect of which that person has the power conferred by this paragraph.

(2) The matters that may be set out in a designation as the matters in respect of which a person has the power conferred by this paragraph shall be confined to-

(a) offences that are relevant penalty notice offences for the purposes of the application of paragraph 1 to the designated person;

(b) offences that are relevant offences for the purposes of the application of paragraph 2 to the designated person; and

(c) behaviour that constitutes acting in an anti-social manner (within the meaning of section 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) (anti-social behaviour orders)).

(3) In any case in which a person to whom this paragraph applies has imposed a requirement on any other person under paragraph 2(2) or 3(1) in respect of anything appearing to him to be a matter set out in the designation, he may use reasonable force to prevent that other person from making off while he is either-

(a) subject to a requirement imposed in that case by the designated person under sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 2; or

(b) accompanying the designated person to a police station in accordance with an election made in that case under sub-paragraph (4) of that paragraph.

Alcohol consumption in designated public places

5 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, within the relevant police area, have the powers of a constable under section 12 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (c. 16) (alcohol consumption in public places)-

(a) to impose a requirement under subsection (2) of that section; and
(b) to dispose under subsection (3) of that section of anything surrendered to him;

and that section shall have effect in relation to the exercise of those powers by that person as if the references to a constable in subsections (1) and (5) were references to that person.

Confiscation of alcohol

6 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, within the relevant police area, have the powers of a constable under section 1 of the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997 (c. 33) (confiscation of intoxicating liquor)-

(a) to impose a requirement under subsection (1) of that section; and
(b) to dispose under subsection (2) of that section of anything surrendered to him;

and that section shall have effect in relation to the exercise of those powers by that person as if the references to a constable in subsections (1) and (4) (but not the reference in subsection (5) (arrest)) were references to that person.

Confiscation of tobacco etc.

7 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, within the relevant police area, have-

(a) the power to seize anything that a constable in uniform has a duty to seize under subsection (3) of section 7 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (c. 12) (seizure of tobacco etc. from young persons); and

(b) the power to dispose of anything that a constable may dispose of under that subsection;

and the power to dispose of anything shall be a power to dispose of it in such manner as the police authority may direct.

Entry to save life or limb or prevent serious damage to property

8 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have the powers of a constable under section 17 of the 1984 Act to enter and search any premises in the relevant police area for the purpose of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property.

Seizure of vehicles used to cause alarm etc.

9 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person-

(a) that person shall, within the relevant police area, have all the powers of a constable in uniform under section 59 of this Act which are set out in subsection (3) of that section; and

(b) references in that section to a constable, in relation to the exercise of any of those powers by that person, are references to that person.

(2) A person to whom this paragraph applies shall not enter any premises in exercise of the power conferred by section 59(3)(c) except in the company, and under the supervision, of a constable.

Abandoned vehicles

10 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have any such powers in the relevant police area as are conferred on persons designated under that section by regulations under section 99 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27) (removal of abandoned vehicles).

Power to stop vehicle for testing

11 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, within the relevant police area, have the power of a constable in uniform to stop a vehicle under subsection (3) of section 67 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) for the purposes of a test under subsection (1) of that section.

Power to control traffic for purposes of escorting a load of exceptional dimensions

12 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have, for the purpose of escorting a vehicle or trailer carrying a load of exceptional dimensions either to or from the relevant police area, the power of a constable engaged in the regulation of traffic in a road-

(a) to direct a vehicle to stop;

(b) to make a vehicle proceed in, or keep to, a particular line of traffic; and

(c) to direct pedestrians to stop.

(2) Sections 35 and 37 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (offences of failing to comply with directions of constable engaged in regulation of traffic in a road) shall have effect in relation to the exercise of those powers for the purpose mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) by a person whose designation applies this paragraph to him as if the references to a constable engaged in regulation of traffic in a road were references to that person.

(3) The powers conferred by virtue of this paragraph may be exercised in any police area in England and Wales.

(4) In this paragraph "vehicle or trailer carrying a load of exceptional dimensions" means a vehicle or trailer the use of which is authorised by an order made by the Secretary of State under section 44(1)(d) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Carrying out of road checks

13 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have the following powers in the relevant police area-

(a) the power to carry out any road check the carrying out of which by a police officer is authorised under section 4 of the 1984 Act (road checks); and

(b) for the purpose of exercising that power, the power conferred by section 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (power of police to stop vehicles) on a constable in uniform to stop a vehicle.

Cordoned areas

14 Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall, in relation to any cordoned area in the relevant police area, have all the powers of a constable in uniform under section 36 of the Terrorism Act 2000 (c. 11) (enforcement of cordoned area) to give orders, make arrangements or impose prohibitions or restrictions.

Power to stop and search vehicles etc. in authorised areas

15 (1) Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person-

(a) that person shall, in any authorised area within the relevant police area, have all the powers of a constable in uniform by virtue of section 44(1)(a) and (d) and (2)(b) and 45(2) of the Terrorism Act 2000 (powers of stop and search)-

(i) to stop and search vehicles;

(ii) to search anything in or on a vehicle or anything carried by the driver of a vehicle or any passenger in a vehicle;

(iii) to search anything carried by a pedestrian; and

(iv) to seize and retain any article discovered in the course of a search carried out by him or by a constable by virtue of any provision of section 44(1) or (2) of that Act;

and

(b) the references to a constable in subsections (1) and (4) of section 45 of that Act (which relate to the exercise of those powers) shall have effect in relation to the exercise of any of those powers by that person as references to that person.

(2) A person shall not exercise any power of stop, search or seizure by virtue of this paragraph except in the company, and under the supervision, of a constable.

That is it, nothing more.

Any powers you have are by definition, now longer the powers of a constable as they can now be bestowed on any member of the public like youself.

You may have powers that were formerly the powers of a constable in uniform. ,
but they are minor powers, but nowhere above is the power to form opinion or give evidence in speed enforcement.

You really should try to understand the Law before you try to inforce it, as the above is what section 38 refers to, nothing else.

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 19:15 
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Hi Mrs Miggins..

I will try to get the hang of quotes,,,busy working and 4 kids and wife to look after, ...but will try to work out the Quote thing !!! :D

Armed with the facts that PCSOs cannot form prior opinion

I could have fought my wifes speeding ticket as unenforceable...

We are getting fines and points which are based on PCSOs looking thru laser guns and getting PCs to write out tickets when this is in fact well not right !!!!!

I may challenge them can I do so..if we have paid the fine and got the points. ????


We only paid up to get them off our backs as it were...

PCSOs you are dangerous people..you should be out winning the hearts and souls of the public if you want to be respected. The powers that be getting you to just ticket people is not the way forward. I have no respect for you. I am sorry. I didnt really know nothing about you till our bad experience.

PCSO s you are supposed to be community support, why so much emphasis on trying to book people ??? Ego perhaps ???

Should you not so what you are supposedly paid for...sorting the youths out anti social behaviour etc ..before you take over the role of traffic police ??? I cannot work you lot out..from what I see here you are just POWER HUNGRY people trying to look big...

Do you not understand ????????????


You dont you are a waste .. the lot of you sorry !!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 19:50 
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police reform act 2002

PART 4
POLICE POWERS ETC.
CHAPTER 1
EXERCISE OF POLICE POWERS ETC. BY CIVILIANS
38 Police powers for police authority employees

(1) The chief officer of police of any police force may designate any person who-

(a) is employed by the police authority maintaining that force, and
(b) is under the direction and control of that chief officer,
as an officer of one or more of the descriptions specified in subsection (2).

(2) The description of officers are as follows-

(a) community support officer;
(b) investigating officer;
(c) detention officer;
(d) escort officer.
(3) A Director General may designate any person who-

(a) is an employee of his Service Authority, and
(b) is under the direction and control of that Director General,

as an investigating officer.

(4) A chief officer of police or a Director General shall not designate a person under this section unless he is satisfied that that person-

(a) is a suitable person to carry out the functions for the purposes of which he is designated;
(b) is capable of effectively carrying out those functions; and
(c) has received adequate training in the carrying out of those functions and in the exercise and performance of the powers and duties to be conferred on him by virtue of the designation
.


reading the bold anything is possible


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