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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 15:24 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6095680.stm

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In the letter, Mr Miliband calls for measures to combat "car use and ownership", and a "substantial increase" in road tax, the paper claims. He also calls for a new pay-per-mile pollution tax.

The paper said leaked proposals suggest families with big cars could end up paying more than £1,000 a year in additional tax.



Ok I have had enough. Give me the BNP, UKIP...for that matter anybody who has not sold out to this "Global warming" Hysteria.

I have given up the the Torys and Glib-Dems already after their recent election suicide bids.

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Last edited by Gizmo on Sun Oct 29, 2006 21:25, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:04 
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I feel the same way Gizmo, this government are stifling our democracy, and if any of the other main contenders get in I can't see things getting any better. There's a big write up in the MoS about the same thing.

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Last edited by Dixie on Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:05, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:05 
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:hoppingmad: There's never the smiley I want!

I recon we should have a 'national not using your car at all, even for going to work' day and see what happens....

Maybe we could couple it with a 'national not moving any goods at all by lorry' day and see if we can make the f*ckwits realise that WE NEED MECHANICALLY PROPELLED TRANSPORT!!!!!

(sorry for shouting...)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:11 
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It gets worse...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/29102006/325/government-eyes-raft-green-taxes-newspaper.html

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He says a 1999 freeze on automatic rises in duty on petrol, should be removed and that a new mechanism should be considered to keep petrol prices high at the pumps by raising fuel duty if the oil price drops significantly.


BASTARD :o

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:20 
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This is nothing to do with "green" but is simply a way to raise more tax from "people with big cars who can afford it". It's reminiscent of the Richmond Council fiasco - too much social engineering.

If climate change exists and humans are responsible (two big ifs) then our taxing cars emitting marginally more CO2 will make absolutely no difference globally.

It's just envy politics. "Those city traders with big cars have got big bonus's - lets have some." - G. Brown

I'll soon be writing to the papers saying that I'm having to cut down on my kid's food and new shoes to keep my X5 and Aston going. :)

The fuel price ratchet noted above is also a political fix. The Chancellor won't have to keep getting up and giving us bad (i.e. vote losing) news about petrol tax rises every so often. They will just happen quietly and nobody will notice ... :x

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:29 
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malcolmw wrote:
This is nothing to do with "green" but is simply a way to raise more tax from "people with big cars who can afford it". It's reminiscent of the Richmond Council fiasco - too much social engineering.


I know that, and you know that so why do they get away with it.... :?

It costs less than a penny a gallon to sink the carbon petrol produces back into the ground so why has this not been mentioned in the national media. I just shows how spineless they are....oops I forgot they have all sold out with political alliances.

Now the environment has become a political issue it now all down to cash. They can screw 30 million people so they can pour more money down the drain in the NHS and education due to bad management. Funny how the only way they can try and "control" the population is by bleeding them dry.

It just makes me Soooooooooooooooo mad.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 16:30 
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I pretty much agree. Unlike others I do think global warming is a real effect, but to keep saying that taxing cars is THE way to stop it is utter bunk and a pathetic excuse for stealth taxes.

Once again, it's the curse of 'black and white 'us and them' discontinuous thinking. Anyone who dares point out that raising taxes or making it impossible to park legally won't help the environment is going to be labelled as no better than a holocaust denier. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 17:06 
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This is the MoS version.

Quote:
Secret green tax blitz planned for cars, air travel and consumer goods
By SIMON WALTERS, Mail on Sunday

Secret plans for a multi-billion-pound package of stealth taxes on fuel, cars, air travel and consumer goods have been drawn up by the government to combat global warming.

Read the full secret document here

The proposals, leaked to The Mail on Sunday, show that the Government is considering introducing a raft of hard-hitting 'eco-taxes' that will have a devastating effect on the cost of living.

Families with big cars could end up paying more than £1,000 a year extra in tax. And nearly every household in Britain will be hit in the pocket.

Most controversial of all, the documents reveal the Government is planning to grab billions of pounds of extra revenue from motorists - without telling them. It is considering introducing a special mechanism so that whenever oil prices go down, the Government would get the cash in extra fuel tax - not the motorist.

A leaked letter from Environment Secretary David Miliband to Chancellor Gordon Brown says the advantage of this is that the Government would gain billions of pounds 'without individual announcements on fuel-duty rises needing to be made'.

The Government was immediately accused by the Conservatives of trying to introduce more 'stealth taxes' and failing to be honest with voters about the consequences of dealing with climate change.

The leak comes 24 hours before Tony Blair launches a major report warning that floods and other natural disasters caused by global warming will spark an economic catastrophe worse than the 1929 Wall Street Crash. But the report, by economist Sir Nicholas Stern, does not reveal what the Government plans to do about it.

But a leaked letter written from Mr Miliband to Mr Brown on October 18 and obtained by The Mail on Sunday spells out the grim reality: wide-ranging tax rises that will have a dramatic impact on family incomes.

Mr Miliband calls for tough measures to combat 'car use and ownership' with a 'substantial increase' in road tax, which currently costs a maximum of £210 a year. Mr Miliband says road tax should copy the 'success' of company-car taxes which forced people to switch to smaller vehicles with annual levies of up to £5,000.

He also suggests a 'Treasury mechanism' allowing the Government to benefit from any fall in oil prices and reintroducing the 'fuel-duty escalator', which put up the duty on petrol by five per cent over inflation until Mr Brown ordered a freeze in 1999.

Mr Miliband calls for a new 'pay-per-mile pollution tax' on motorists. And he urges VAT on air travel to EU destinations and new taxes on inefficient washing machines and light bulbs.

He also backs fresh laws to let town halls impose a 'rubbish tax' on households by using 'spies' placed in dustbins to weigh non-recyclable refuse.

The letter says: 'Differential charging for waste at household level can have a significant role to play and local authorities should be given the powers to do so.'

Mr Miliband also called for landfill tax - paid by businesses and local councils that bury rubbish - to be increased from £21 a ton to £75. But one environmental expert said this could lead to more fly-tipping unless it is properly policed.

The letter to Mr Brown, marked 'Restricted', demands urgent and radical action in next month's public-spending review and next year's Budget.

Changing people's behaviour can be achieved only by 'market forces and price signals', it says, adding: 'Market-based instruments, including taxes, need to play a substantial role. As our understandings of climate change increases, it is clear more needs to be done.'

The Government must 'increase the pace of existing tax measures, broaden them into sectors where incentives to cut carbon emissions are weak and identify new instruments to drive progress in tackling greenhouse gas'.

An aide to Mr Miliband said: "We don't comment on leaked documents. These are ideas, not a package of measures." An ally of Mr Brown added: "The Chancellor does not approve of conducting Government business on the basis of leaks."

Tory environment spokesman Peter Ainsworth said: "No one is more committed to tackling climate change than the Conservatives. But if the Government wants to deal with it successfully, it must do so in an upfront way instead of bringing in stealth taxes by the back door.

"As with everything this Government does, the devil is in the detail. If motorists and consumers think all the Government wants to do is to slap taxes on everything, they may respond negatively.

"Tony Blair's Government has sat on its hands for ten years. Tackling the enormous challenge of climate change would have been much easier if they hadn't left it so late."

Professor Julian Morris, environmental economist at Birmingham University and director of the International Policy Network, a free-market think-tank, called the new taxes "underhand" and accused the Government of "nannying".

Here we reveal the taxes proposed by Mr Miliband, Professor Morris's opinion of them - and, crucially, what they will cost taxpayers.

• How it will affect family budgets

A couple with two children and a big car could see their annual bills increase by about £1,300 a year if the new 'green' stealth taxes go ahead. Even people with average cars could be £750 a year worse off.

The Miliband memo gives few details on the level of the new taxes. But The Mail on Sunday has compiled a budget - using cautious estimates - showing how families could be hit, based on conversations with Government insiders:

Chelsea tractor tax: Road tax disc on Toyota Landcruiser trebled from £210 to £630 and doubled from £150 to £300 for Vauxhall Zafira.

Petrol-will-never-be-cheap tax: The new Treasury plan to raise fuel tax when oil prices drop could raise pump prices by 5p a litre (22p a gallon).

A family with a gas-guzzling car who drive 15,000 miles a year would face an extra £130 annual petrol bill. A return to automatic annual fuel duty rises at five per cent above inflation could add a further 5p per litre, doubling the additional cost to £260 for a 4x4, £130 for an average car.

Pay-as-you-drive tax: New tax to make motorists pay for all environmental damage including carbon emissions, congestion, noise and damage to the ozone layer could mean a 2p-per-mile tax on all journeys for big cars, costing £300 on 15,000 annual mileage and £150 (1p a mile) for average vehicles.

Cheap flights tax: VAT at 17.5 per cent on EU airline flights would increase the typical £500 bill for family of four to fly on holiday to the Mediterranean to £587.50. An extra £5 air passenger duty each would add extra £40. Total extra: £127.50.

Light bulb tax: New levy on energy-wasting appliances could mean £50 tax on cheap washing machines, dishwashers and tumble-dryers. New £1.50 tax on old-fashioned light bulbs to halve the price gap with energy-saving ones. Total extra cost £56. (Based on an average of one new appliance a year plus four light bulbs.)

Total extra cost: A family of four with a large car would therefore pay an extra £420 in road tax, £260 in fuel duty, £300 pollution tax, £127.50 aviation tax, and £56 on washing machines and light bulbs, making a grand total of £1,163.50.

Extra revenue for the Treasury: Up to £7billion.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 17:16 
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Quote:
Extra revenue for the Treasury: Up to £7billion.


:o

So hows that going to save the planet then :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 17:48 
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Gizmo wrote:
It costs less than a penny a gallon to sink the carbon petrol produces back into the ground

Really? Do you have more info on that? I cant believe something so seemingly critical, yet so cheap to do, isn't being done already.

....unless it's not actually so critical but the perception of it being so has other benefits...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 18:22 
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CO2 balancing is about £5 a ton. It would cost me £55 a year which is way less than the thieving govt want to charge.

When MPs give up their chauffeur driven cars and use the bus then I'll turn green, until then they can stick their taxes up their rectal orifices.

Gawd knows what they'd waste the money on. Education is a joke, the nhs is a joke, the roads are falling to bits, there is a massive council house shortage and that is just the visible signs of their obscene money wasting habits.

Those that have failed to do anything with their lives and can't afford a large car wish to prevent those that can from doing so out of sheer envy. Green politics is nothing about environmentalism. If immigrants can come here and make something of themselves from nothing then the indigenous lazy gits have no excuses.

There is also news of pushing up council tax to obscene levels. How the hell is an ordinary family supposed to live on an average wage when they have a council tax bill in the multiple thousands a year? Add on a mondeo and they're going to be choosing between being allowed to travel anywhere and feeding the kids. How do they do their shopping without a car exactly? How can you get 2 adults, 2 kids and a full week's shopping in some crappy little supermini? They will have to make 2 trips!

Will the government pay out in the event of an accident when it is proven driving a underpowered over loaded cars killed a car full of people as they tried to join a fast moving motorway at 30mph because that was all their asthmatic crap heap could manage?

Time to amass the petrol bombs to rain upon westminster while we can still afford them.

I think those in the haulage industry should go on strike and refuse to move food and goods around in protest. Widespread panic will be caused and a few people will faint due to lack of food. It will take 4 days to change their minds....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 18:32 
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teabelly wrote:
I think those in the haulage industry should go on strike and refuse to move food and goods around in protest. Widespread panic will be caused and a few people will faint due to lack of food. It will take 4 days to change their minds....


I'd go on strike with them, what ever happened to national strikes?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 19:31 
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teabelly wrote:
CO2 balancing is about £5 a ton. It would cost me £55 a year which is way less than the thieving govt want to charge.

When MPs give up their chauffeur driven cars and use the bus then I'll turn green, until then they can stick their taxes up their rectal orifices.

Gawd knows what they'd waste the money on. Education is a joke, the nhs is a joke, the roads are falling to bits, there is a massive council house shortage and that is just the visible signs of their obscene money wasting habits.

Those that have failed to do anything with their lives and can't afford a large car wish to prevent those that can from doing so out of sheer envy. Green politics is nothing about environmentalism. If immigrants can come here and make something of themselves from nothing then the indigenous lazy gits have no excuses.

There is also news of pushing up council tax to obscene levels. How the hell is an ordinary family supposed to live on an average wage when they have a council tax bill in the multiple thousands a year? Add on a mondeo and they're going to be choosing between being allowed to travel anywhere and feeding the kids. How do they do their shopping without a car exactly? How can you get 2 adults, 2 kids and a full week's shopping in some crappy little supermini? They will have to make 2 trips!

Will the government pay out in the event of an accident when it is proven driving a underpowered over loaded cars killed a car full of people as they tried to join a fast moving motorway at 30mph because that was all their asthmatic crap heap could manage?

Time to amass the petrol bombs to rain upon westminster while we can still afford them.

I think those in the haulage industry should go on strike and refuse to move food and goods around in protest. Widespread panic will be caused and a few people will faint due to lack of food. It will take 4 days to change their minds....


A rant, but I like it. Includes valid points like taxation being high, but evidence of investment being difficult to see.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 20:08 
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teabelly wrote:
Those that have failed to do anything with their lives and can't afford a large car wish to prevent those that can from doing so out of sheer envy. ....


A bit harsh. Not everyone wants or needs a car. I don't envy any car owner at all. If anything, I find it amusing that people I know to be less well off than me struggle to fund fancy cars to make people think they are wealthy and successful. Using the same proportions I should be driving some top of the shop Range Rover instead of a wholly owned newish Galaxy.

It's a bit small minded to say that car ownership is a sign of success. It's more likely to be a sign of laziness, disorganisation and bad debt.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 21:21 
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Ru88ell wrote:
A bit harsh. Not everyone wants or needs a car.


Only 30 million people in the UK.

The vast majority of working adults in fact.

I am struggling to think of anyone successful, famous, or rich who to my knowledge does not have a car.

Having a car (or motorcycle) is a choice of freedom. To go WHEREVER you want, WHENEVER you want. There is no substitute.

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Last edited by Gizmo on Sun Oct 29, 2006 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 21:30 
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Ru88ell wrote:
It's a bit small minded to say that car ownership is a sign of success. It's more likely to be a sign of laziness, disorganisation and bad debt.


So the above is not a bit small mined.

My father paid for his car right out.
My grandfather was nice enough buy my car for me, he paid for the car in full.

Or do you assume every one who has a car is in debt?
is lazy, and disorganised?

Some people don't want a car, fair enough.
Some just want a basic car, fair enough.
Some like the idea of having a prestige car, fair enough.
Some people aspire to certain marques; some don’t care, fair enough.
Some like old cars, some like new, fair enough.
Some want a small engine, some want big engines, and fair enough.
I could go on.
At the end of the day it is all about personal choice, we live in a country that is in theory free. People, who wish to better their life styles, be this by improving their home, or by getting a nice/prestige car. Then they should be allowed. They should not have the arse taxed off them because they wish to improve an aspect of their lives.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 22:08 
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For once the BBC Have your Say is not pre-screened, and the number of anti-government comments, pointing out this is an excuse for tax, is certainly noticeable!

I think my favourite is "Just watch as all that tax money absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere. " :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 22:30 
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As I wrote in another thread:

The facts from the 2000 UN climate change report are pretty revealing. Stuart Beatty (RIP) did an enormous amount of work analysing that tome. Although they'd buried the facts pretty deep, IIRC the salient details are:
  • Of all CO2 emissions worldwide, only 0.6% is attributable to transport (land, air, or sea).
  • UK is responsible for less than 2% of worldwide pollution.
  • CO2 is responsible for about 5% of total greenhouse effect, the other 95% is mainly due to water vapour.
So, the amount of greenhouse effect contribution by UK, transport-derived CO2 is 0.05 * 0.006 * 0.02 = 0.000006 (or about half of one thousandth of one percent). Now that's for all UK transport (land, sea, or air). Ergo the amount from UK cars is insignificant. (We can ignore lorries and buses because the politicians have.) To put it another way, if all cars were removed from UK roads right now, there'd be absolutely no discernible effect on worldwide climate change. Also, the worst polluters worldwide (the USA) have in so many words told the world to **** off and until the biggest polluting nations fall into the green line, whatever we do is merely a token guesture - but one that is seriously hurting the worst off over here.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 23:35 
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willcove wrote:
As I wrote in another thread:

The facts from the 2000 UN climate change report are pretty revealing. Stuart Beatty (RIP) did an enormous amount of work analysing that tome. Although they'd buried the facts pretty deep, IIRC the salient details are:
  • Of all CO2 emissions worldwide, only 0.6% is attributable to transport (land, air, or sea).
  • UK is responsible for less than 2% of worldwide pollution.
  • CO2 is responsible for about 5% of total greenhouse effect, the other 95% is mainly due to water vapour.
So, the amount of greenhouse effect contribution by UK, transport-derived CO2 is 0.05 * 0.006 * 0.02 = 0.000006 (or about half of one thousandth of one percent). Now that's for all UK transport (land, sea, or air). Ergo the amount from UK cars is insignificant. (We can ignore lorries and buses because the politicians have.) To put it another way, if all cars were removed from UK roads right now, there'd be absolutely no discernible effect on worldwide climate change. Also, the worst polluters worldwide (the USA) have in so many words told the world to **** off and until the biggest polluting nations fall into the green line, whatever we do is merely a token guesture - but one that is seriously hurting the worst off over here.


What are the top causes?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 00:36 
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