Safe Speed Forums

I drive a Yaris and find that the wind screen pillars block an awful lot vision in town and my Tom Tom is less of a distraction if I mount in the bottom right hand corner of the screen.
I also belive that you have concentrate properly when driving then you will see motorbikes etc; instead of just having a quick glance to see if any thing is coming towards you.
Re.Kids
Both of mine are now in their thirties now but when they were young they used to drive me mad when they were in the back of the car.
Now that was a distraction!

Well in all honesty it doesn't matter. There are plenty of legal reasons to have screens in your car. The police have them too remember. At the end of the day you shouldn't be staring at the insides of someones car, you should be looking where you are going. I doubt "I was watching the onboard TV of the car I was overtaking and didn't see the car in front slam on" would be a valid excuse.


No, thank god. But my point was that a PSP screen would be just as visible as a satnav screen. Possibly moreso as it will be angled upwards.


Every satnav manual I've seen (which is admittedly only two or three, most people I associate with are competent enough to install a device that comes provided with a couple of sticky pads and a fag lighter lead) tells you not to place it somewhere were vision is obstructed. I am pretty sure they all will since they are all sold in America so if they didn't have that warning, some idiot would put it right in the middle of Zone A and then sue the manufacturer.


So it is ok to own a paper map, so long as you don't use it in a stupid manner, such as reading it whilst driving.

Why then is it not ok to own a satnav so long as you don't use it in a stupid manner, such as slapping it right in the way of your forward vision?


It has everything to do with this argument, ultimately we are talking about the inability to use a tool correctly. In my opinion it doesn't matter whether that tool is a satnav, a paper map, a car, an electric drill or a MIG welder. You don't ban the things just because a handful of idiots use them incorrectly which is what many people in this thread seem to be advocating.


I can demonstrate perfectly safe use of a satnav. I have mine installed in the centre console. Before setting off, I program in my destination and then a friendly robotic female voice tells me that I need to turn left in 500 yards or whatever. Pretty much the same as having a passenger navigate for you, sure they are not perfect at reading the maps and picking a route, but I would choose Destinator 6 over my mother with a paper map any day!

I have a Garmi Nuvi, in some states in the US it is illegal to have the attached to the screen (it's deemed to cause an obstruction) so it comes with a plastic disc that attaches to the dash and the cradle can be fitted to that.

I've got it installed in my car that way it causes no obstruction of vision, is easier to use than a map, it also has traffic alerts and rerouting around traffic jams.

So it also IMO makes my journeys less stressful and allows me to concentrate more on the road.

I have seen satnavs being put in some barking places, but then some of these drivers are also all over the shop, foglights on and generally driving like pratts.

The satnav doesn't cause them to be idiots, it only highlights thier deficiences.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

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To sum up my experience for Lum (and anybody else); The driver just pulled across in front of me without indicating to change lanes (at night dual carraigeway no other traffic) and then at the roudabout they stopped and looked lost.
Presumbly an attractive female (what do women users get I wonder) voice told him to change lane and then turn ?

I'm sorry but like so much other crap that manufacturers insist on foisting on us they should be banned as for some people the distraction element is just to much

Bit about kids/passengers with consoles DVd players etc I look out for them on the simple basis that the driver could be distracted by the child/passenger with it - and before you ask my kids where brought up with a simple rule - talk to me Yes but don't distract me

Driving is a relatively simple procedure which government and manufacturers have made increasingly complex over the years

Nostalgia ain't what it was

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I walk I cycle I drive and I vote

and other than him having a unit glued to his window, what makes you think his satnav made him do this??
I have a satnav in my car but that doesn't mean I use it all the time.



I find it far more distracting worrying about where I am and when I should be turning (and looking for the non-existant signs rather than at the road) than having someone tell me where to do so with plenty of notice.

They don't distract anybody! driver or otherwise but while we are at it we could hide away all the pretty girls to prevent them causing a distraction.
And those bloody road signs I mean I never watch the road when I look at those things.
Sneezing! that should definetly be banned as I bet you that you are not able to sneeze without closing your eyes.
Oh and nightime! I mean you just can't see properly.

If you look for a problem then you will find one.

Even if this was down to the stanav which I sincerely doubt, they obviously wern't using it right. You get a voice prompt telling you what's coming way in advance. On mine, at low speeds you get something like "in 500 yards, take first exit at the roundabout", then a reminder at 200 yards and a second reminder just as you enter the roundabout. At higher speeds it'll give you them at 2 miles, 500 yards and upon enterance.

Sorry, but I doubt this sudden poorly executed lane change was down to the satnav, it's not like people have never made dumb lane changes before satnav was invented. It happens to me all the time when I'm in my invisible car (grey VW Passat)

You just had someone do something stupid, saw that they happened to have a satnav on the dash and decided that it was the cause of all the mistakes that driver made. Have you considered working for your local council?

OK Lum I don't have a satnav and I have better things (IMHO) to spend my money on. You have one and love it,- fine - Lets agree to differ, BUT how do you know that the satnav did not cause that particular driver to do what he did - I was there and you weren't

Funny that I have a grey car as well, the best colour car I've had bright yellow only car no body ever hit.

And if i did work for my local council in a position of authority i would take out Speed humps, Home zones chicaning, pointlees one way systems and have speed limits set appropriately and static speed cameras only where needed

and all VW drivers banned OK maybe not

But I'm not I have to work for a living

As for Paul W's comment i think i know what the w stands for
P.S. If the w stands for Weller I thought The Style Council where rubbish

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I walk I cycle I drive and I vote

I think the point is, no-one knows why that particular driver decided to behave like a complete muppet, but your apparent bias against satnavs appears to have led you to conclude that it must have been the presence of the satnav in this scenario that caused the problems, and therefore all satnavs should be banned... and that's just plain bonkers.

As you've admitted, you don't have a satnav, so presumably you've no real first-hand experience of how they work or how distracting (or otherwise) they can be to a driver. Several of us here do have satnav systems of varying ages and abilities, and I think most if not all of us would agree that when used sensibly they offer a genuine benefit. But as with so many things in life, it's when the user decides to throw common sense out the window that you start running into problems. The satnav may have been the cause of this particular example of muppetry, but that's no reason to ban satnavs, more a reason to ban idiots from driving.

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Chris

OK- i don't have a sat nav, but , before Tom/Tom etc a firm did supply them under licence etc via dealers. I did work ( not sat nav) for this dealer and saw the fitter at work.Onething that was taboo was fitting the display ( and these were twice the size of Tom/Tom) above the dash line - reason - the manufacturer's insistence that no display was fitted there.
Reason - safety.
I have travelled in the dealers vehicle and seen the sat nav in action - verdict - great ,if you don't know area, otherwise - great for finding traffic jams.

However the POINT IS MISSED - numpty buys satnav, fits it on dash , next thing he creates a huge gap in his forward vision. He's trying to look round a 4x4 inch obstacle on his dash, approx 24 inch from his eyeball. Do we have to go into the maths and vision paths to accept that now he has a LARGE part of his screen in which all he can see is the sat nav display -- not some innocent biker /some kid running on the pavemeNT. Ok - his interior mirror screens some of this , but on the whole it is situated ABOVE the dash, not in his line of vision.
Same situation - no sat nav - just a winters day , numpty has a hole cleared on his side to see in front -- we all call him plonker . But if he has clear windscreen ,vision blocked to any extent by sat nav we say ok.
Try an experiment - take a tape measure ( mine is 63mm square ) place it the same distance from your screen that you have in your car and see how much of your screen is masked.
Some one will do the maths, mine would be suspect as an interested party , but i would not be surprised that after 10 m a car /kid would./could be invisible.
I would noyt chance it --could you ??

None of the pro-satnav people in this thread are arguing with this point. I entirely agree with you, subject to a few minor caveats. However is the fact that numpty is doing this a reason to ban satnav. I do not think so. How about banning numpties instead?

Anyway, the caveat. I believe it is ok to place a satnav on the dash if it is not obstructing forward vision. examples.

1) Driver has a Subaru Impreza STI. There is already a huge great intercooler scoop obstructing forward vision. If the satnav is only obscuring your view of that scoop it may as well stay there.

2) Driver is very tall. The only thing they can see in the bottom quarter of the windscreen is their car's bonnet. Satnav can go on dash

3) Satnav is placed in far right corner of dash obscuring nothing but the A-pillar. (Obviously in some cars this will not be possible due to narrow A pillars)

But otherwise, as you say, the satnav should not be there.

Personally I have my satnav located in the centre console. It has a nice big 7" touchscreen that is easy to read, it has voice directions and FWIW, I always put my tax disc in the top left corner of the windscreen so it doesn't obstruct my view of that bit of the path.

Oooh yer bitch!

Lum - no arguements - think we all agree - but then next thing we will get is a law deciding where Sat Nav wil be placed - Me - from what i've seen -with displays on the dash/ halfway up the screen etc -perhaps time has come ( heaven forbid ) to let HATO STOP THESE PLONKERS( and ticket them at £30) and demand the removal- although they are not versed in the acid lecture scenario as perfected by Trafpols. Perhaps the time wasted might persuade the plonker element that the safest place for these was out of the line of vision.

Any excuse to take a break from packing up the house (moving day tomorrow, oh joy...). Apologies for the crap quality of the pics, and no laughing at my brand new state of the art satnav system - it's a one of a kind prototype honest, I shouldn't really be showing it to any of you just yet It's also roughly the same size as the Tomtom 5/7/910 units, so fairly representative of the typical aftermarket satnav system being discussed in this thread.


Where only a complete muppet would stick their satnav...


...or an almost reasonable position to put it for someone my height or taller?

Note that the unit hasn't moved at all between these two photos, the ONLY change is in the position of the camera. The first pic was one of the failed attempts at capturing how much of my forward vision was blocked, the second pic is closer, but still slightly worse than reality - this would probably match my actual eyeline if I slumped down in the seat. So we go from a completely stupid location to one which isn't actually that bad, just by moving the camera (or, more pertinently, the position of the drivers head and eyes). In other words, without evaluating each installation from the exact point of view of the driver, it's not that easy to judge how much forward vision they're losing - if any at all.


This would be roughly where I'd install such a unit if I didn't want to faff around with custom mounts - notice the near complete absence of blocked forward vision despite it sitting on top of the dash...


If I got rid of the multi-function display, I could stick the unit here without too much hassle, but I like my trip computer too much!


Hmm, I think we have a winner - would most likely need a customised mount, but this location manages to avoid obscuring any of the existing instrumentation/controls and also avoids blocking any external vision - the only thing I can normally see out the obscured part of the side window is the mount for the wing mirror...



OK, so this isn't exactly a rigorous scientific experiment, but it does highlight something several of us have been saying - positioning of anything within the drivers field of vision is very much an individual thing. Granted, there are some positions which it's fairly safe to write off as being idiotic without having to experience them from the drivers point of view, but to dismiss all above-the-dash positions as being dangerous is just wrong.

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Chris

you mean the stick it on the window somewhere between the dash and the mirror setup?

Some of those are the ones I had in mind, yes... But just as it's wrong to write off all dash-top positions without considering the driver eyeline, it's equally wrong to write off all screen-mount positions. If, for instance, you had it mounted alongside the rearview mirror, it would clearly reduce your field of vision, but unless you're on the lookout for descending paratroopers then I doubt blocking off that part of the screen would make a dingos kidney of a difference to anyone - indeed, if it's legal to drive around with your sunvisors lowered, then should it be illegal to block off a comparable section of the screen with any other opaque piece of material?

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Chris

As for custom mounts, Brodit do a mounting system in two parts, the first clips onto the dash, over airvents, or other places in the car (it uses gaps in the 'furniture' to anchor. Then you have specific fittings for the phone, pda, satnav you are using.

Proclip Mounts for C4

I have the mid mount and it in no way obstructs vision.

Botach, as for it become law where you can and cannot put, it's already there in the US.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk