Safe Speed Forums

here is a question for you. I have just received my NIP from Cleveland police for speeding on the A66 dual carriageway near Long Newton. The speed limit there is 70, my speed was 68. Been through the camera about 100 times previously but this time it flashed, it was dark and wet.

Anyway looked into this and have drawn some conclusions but would like to hear if anybody actually knows if this is correct. The NIP says I have been done for: excess speed (class of veh) LGV cont to S68(1) RTRA 1984& S89(1) RTRA 1984 86 891.

See the Highway code:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103

I've not looked up your vehicle, but I guess it's a "Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)", and therefore subject to a 60mph speed limit on dual carriageways.

It's very likely tha the speed limit you're being nicked for exceeding is entirely unnecessary, and delivers no safety benefit. Nevertheless they're proposing to take away 25% of your driving licence.

I recommend that you
a) give them a hard time
b) make absolutely sure that THEY aren't in breach of a minor technical regulation
c) Make sure you know your exact legal position (visit http://www.pepipoo.com )
d) take it to court which denies the greedy partnership your cash, and
e) take Trevor Reason's advice: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/unite.html

Good luck, whatever you decide.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

well the bosses at work have come up with this. They are really sorry that they didn't inform me about it before and have now briefed it out.

The speed limit for a car derived van up 2000kg is the same as a car. But a Citroen Dispatch has a Gross Vehicle Weight of 2,190kg thus giving it the same status as a bloody bus yet smaller than some people carriers.

I am going to ring Cleveland Police on monday and ask them why they are prosectuting me. In a polite way ofcourse.

Be sure to research pepipoo before making contact - by phone or otherwise. Leave it 'til the last day before they'd take further action, too...

They are prosecuting you because they are obsessed with the letter of the law and have forgotten both the spirit and the purpose.

As far as the law is concerned they are right. There's no allowance for reasonableness, no test of sanity.

You have three valid courses of action with regard to the "case":

* You can roll over and take the points and the 60 pound fine. The camera partnership gets the cash.

* You can fight them on any number of technicalities (since they are fighting you on a technicality, that's fair) and hope that they have made some error of procedure.

* You can fight them by way of a protest, irrespective of any intention to win. This would involve using as much of their time as possible I suppose.

Quite independently of this case, you might think that the system needs to be fought on any number of levels, in which case you might "join the campaign" in some way. The three important organisations working campaigns are:

Safe Speed (i.e. us) http://www.safespeed.org.uk
ABD http://www.abd.org.uk
Pepipoo http://www.pepipoo.com

All three offer memberships and information you might use as ammunition.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It also seems to be a very grey area exactly which vans are subject to car speed limits, and which to goods vehicle speed limits, particularly when many MPV type cars have van equivalents.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I don't think it's grey at all is it? If it's NOT car derived AND it's over 2,000 kg GVW then it's subject to the lower dual carriageway speed limit.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don't understand how the camera knew what type of vehicle it was.

They just pick it up from DVLA records don't they?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That doesn't seem to be widely understood, though. Surely the van equivalent of a Peugeot 807 (Partner?) can go to more than 2000 kg GVW...

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

This appears to be a big problem .. testing knowledge on more obscure aspects of HC

Another argument for suggesting a first offence should be remedied by training as alternative to points?

admit ... have only scanned this thread....

And the Citroën Dispatch looks as though it's the same basic vehicle.

Why should one set of limits apply to a C8 and another to its van equivalent?

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

But why would the camera flash someone at 2mph under the normal speed limit?

Er, no. The "car-derived van" bit only applies to light goods vehicles under 2 tonne MGW. All light goods vehicle with MGW over 2000 kg together with light goods vehicles of MGW of 2 tonnes or less that are not car-derived vans are subject to the lower limit.

A month or so ago, the Devon and Cornwall pratnership had a field day. They published that "white van men" where the worst speeders of all. What, I suspect, they didn't publish was that most of these "heinous speeders" were doing 70 mph or less on a dual carriageway.

FWIW, I drive a Dispatch 2.0 HDi 900 (2335 kg MGW) and, even though it shares the same chassis, engine and running gear as the Citroen Synergie / Peugeot 806 / Fiat Ullyse, it is subject to the lower limit because it is over 2 tonne MGW. That is, it is restricted to 50 mph on single carriageways, 60 mph on dual carriageways, 70 mph on motorways. FWIW, I only found out about that "gotcha" a few months ago from the Dorset pratnership website.

Now, here's the other gotcha: If you carry out a small amount of conversion (fit lay-flat seats, side windows, a cupboard, and a sink) you can register the same vehicle as a motor-caravan (just a change of the body type on the V5). That same vehicle now has the same limits as a car.

In addition, you can declare your Dispatch to have a MGW of 2000 kg and AFAICT as soon as you have so notified DVLA, your van (being derived from the Synergie or C8 depending on date of registration) can legally enjoy the higher speed limits.

You know it makes sense.

_________________
Will

Yeah. You're right. Thanks Will. Apologies all. I really thought I had it worked out.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

... so that means that "uncovered" is being persecuted for 68 - 10% + 2mph when, had he got a window or two in the back of the car - obviously tremendously important for higher speed cruising.....

See peipoo and make it awkward for them all the way.

This is still a very valid point.

I had an instance one where a red ligh camera kept flashing at random. Fortunatly I was stationary at the lights at the time. I wrote to the Scamera Partnership explaining what I saw and asking them to confirm that there would not be prosecutions from that camera because of the defect (I went into great detail to explain what I saw). I phoned in to Leicester Sound and they gave it out on the traffic watch report.

I got a short letter from the partnership asking for the referance number on the NIP..... They are obviously hard of thinking.. Or they couldn't have read the letter past the first line.

Talk about beating your head against the wall...

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Speed camera policy Kills

I think cameras can discriminate, as the ones on the A1 in Northumbria have been 'doing' HGV's at 50 for several years now.

As far as I have been able to discover, no technical system of discrimination (and there are several) has Home Office type approval. This means that any conviction, based on automated discrimination by a speed camera should fail.

Of course, talivan operators don't require type approval to discriminate, neither do those reviewing photos from fixed cameras.

It's unlikely that a system of technical discrimination could pick out a light van because it's over 2000 Kg GVW.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Does this also mean that if the camera that flashes you (in a car for instance) that incididentally has automated discrimination built in then the prosecution against you is void?