Safe Speed Forums

Something of a long one I obtained from a fellow HGV Driver

To give you an idea of what it's like to drive an artic.

A few points:

1) Speed limiters:

With a few exceptions, the vast majority of artics have speed limiters fitted which are limited to 90kmh (56mph). However, there is a little bit of variance depending on who's set it and some trucks will do perhaps as much as 58mph, some only say 54mph but we're all roughly travelling at the same speed. Inevitably, if you happen to be the driver of one of those, which has, what's known as a "good limiter" (i.e. 57/58mph) then you'll catch up with the truck in front eventually.

Now you've said yourself that it's no fun whatsoever being stuck behind something you can't see round in your car and funnily enough, us truckers feel exactly the same and want to get round whatever is obscuring our view. It's easy for you to say, "Well, what are going to do with the few seconds you save?" but would you sit behind another truck for a considerable length of time that was going slower than your desired speed? I'll answer that for you - no.

Right, so the right indicator goes on and we pull out (see later) but because of the limiter it's rare that we'll pull past the other truck at more than 1-2mph. Yes we would like to accelerate up to 70mph, get past and pull back in but unfortunately we can't because of the limiter. Your comments about "after you've pulled back in you accelerate away no problem" or words to that effect is just your imagination I can assure you.

2) Slipstreaming the truck in front:

Okay, get this into your head: If we pulled out to overtake the truck in front once we had reached the "keeping a 2 second minimum gap from the vehicle in front" as dictated by the Highway Code then what it would result in is the overtaking truck hogging the middle/outside lane for roughly 10 times the length of time and distance you see them doing on the motorways today.

Generally speaking, all us truckers drive in the same way and if a hazard appears ahead that the truck behind can't see then the leading truck will give enough warning by using indicators/hazards/dabbing of brake pedal to alert the following trucker to ease off in anticipation of a hazard or follow suit of changing lane etc. If you're following any other vehicle that isn't a truck then you've no idea what they could do or what their intentions are.

3) Pulling out to overtake.

I'm not a driver who does the signal manoeuvre thing at exactly the same time. Depending on how heavy and fast the traffic is, I will indicate when there's a gap and move out when it's safe to do so. There are a number of different opinions of one's interpretation of "safe" and whilst I consider myself to be a good, considerate and safe driver there are times when I know the manoeuvre I make isn't as safely made as it should be but in my defence I feel that making it when I did actually kept the traffic flow flowing whereas I would have hampered it if I would have performed the manoeuvre safely.

I won't pull out into fast moving traffic IF both the middle and outer lanes are both quite heavy with traffic. However, a big gripe for us truckers is when the outside lane is empty and the Rover/Pug 106 driver is about to pass you doing 60mph in the middle lane, you indicate and they won't move over. THAT is inconsiderate and bad driving. Fair enough, if the traffic is heavy and there's nowhere for them to go then I don't expect them to slow down/move over JUST to let ME out but I will leave my indicator flashing, indicating my intention/desire to pull out.

What most non-truck drivers don't realise and understand is that if a fully-laden truck on the slightest uphill incline indicates to pull out round the vehicle in front and you don't let it, you are doing yourself no favours at all and shooting yourself in the foot. How do I come to that conclusion you're wondering? Well unfortunately most bosses don't give us a nice V8 Scania 164 580hp which will have no problems accelerating like a car up a hill and we are given trucks which will perform acceptably at half weight but really need working to keep the speed up at full weight.

Momentum is what it's all about. If you let that truck pull out - who will usually have indicated in good time for you to easily adjust your speed/get out of the way - then the flow of the traffic continues as normal because the trucker has been able to pull out without coming off the gas and losing that precious momentum. It's a very fine art being able to keep the needle at exactly the right position on the rev counter in the right gear to achieve that premium torque and pulling power. If you drop out of that by having to let off the gas and change down because the inconsiderate car driver couldn't be bothered pressing his accelerator pedal a millimetre to get out of the way then before you know what's happened, the truck's now down to 40mph and all the trucks behind him/her are all indicating to pull out round it thus slowing even more people down and hogging more lanes. Now do you understand?

A lot of truckers are bad drivers - I see it from them too which really lets the side down considering the rigorous class II and class I tests you're put through to ensure we are professional drivers but (no sucking up to the truckers just because I'm trucker) I think the majority car and van drivers really are inconsiderate/dangerous drivers.

Personally I blame the utter ease of the normal driving test, which is an absolute joke. You don't get taught to drive; you get taught to pass your test. Roll on when the day comes when the normal driving test is as hard as the class I one is. That would soon sort the countrywide congestion problem!

4) Car/van driver bad habits (where do you begin...?):

i) Slip roads on:

Okay, let's clear one major point up before we start. The short broken lines at the end of the slip road on mean "give way to vehicles already on the main carriageway" and "adjust your speed to merge WITHOUT causing anyone already on the main carriageway to adjust THEIR speed to match YOURS".

This very, very rarely happens. Car and van drivers come hell for leather down the slip road and either speed up and use every millimetre of the slip road and just manage to squeeze out in front of us as the slip road ends or do 1mph more than us alongside us on the slip road and expect us to move over to let you out. Err no. I used to do this, being the considerate and courteous driver that I am but 9 times out of 10 either 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) The driver who I've moved over for sits alongside me in the inside lane and I'm now in the middle lane having being nice and moved over to let you out and matches my speed wondering why I'm not accelerating past you and pulling back in. Obviously I can't because of the limiter. 2) The driver I've moved over for accelerates up my nearside giving me no acknowledgement of thanks for moving over and thus leaving me stranded in the middle lane trying to see in my nearside blind-spot looking for any other fools that have pulled out before I move back over again.

The courteous thing to do if another vehicle moves over to let you out is to pull out and keep your speed down to approx 5mph less than the vehicle that's moved over and allow them to move back over. Is it too much to ask? I've got so sick of seeing it now that I don't move over. I get horns blasted at me because cars and vans come to the end of the slip road alongside me expecting ME to adjust my speed to let them out. No, no, no. Your give way: You wait.

Sadly, this also applies to a lot of truckers whom I will move over for EXPECTING them to know how the courtesy thing works and do same, allowing you to move back over. Most truckers do in all fairness.

ii) Slip roads off:

DO NOT TRY TO BARGE YOUR WAY INTO A NON-EXISTANT GAP IN FRONT OF US WHEN YOU'RE AT <300YDS. This will result in us getting very road-rage like and if the traffic was at a standstill, getting out of cabs and having a few choice words. Also expect plenty of truck horn noise and much dazzling of full beam. If you had to brake hard for some reason after pulling into our stopping space and we were fully loaded or the road was damp/wet you would be killed when we hit you, as your car would be reduced in length to the thickness of a sheet of A4. And I'm not joking. I just hope for your sake it never happens. You're dicing with death every time you do it. Point made I hope.

iii) Two lanes; tight left hand corners:

We need both lanes okay, just face it and let us get on with it and stay behind until we're fully back in the inside lane. If we're overhanging the outside lane we're not slack and unable to see the white lines, there's a reason for it. Work it out and give us space. Same applies to narrow lanes on roundabouts when turning right. To keep the trailer either in the lane or off the kerb on the centre of the roundabout we need the front end to be half in the next nearside lane. Don't EVER come up the inside when we're turning right on a roundabout. The position of the cab and trailer in such a manoeuvre totally obscures ANY nearside vision. You're extremely likely to end up under the trailer if you do this.

If you do insist on being alongside on tight left hand bends on dual carriageways, then use your head and keep as far over to the right of your lane as possible to give us space if we need it.

5) Setting off from junctions:

Don't think we're taking the Mickey if it takes us a light-year to get up to 30mph from standstill. Going up through the gears takes time and much right foot when you're fully loaded. Pulling out in impatience and cutting back in is just unnecessary and inconsiderate. A good indication if a truck is empty is by looking to see if any of the axles on the tractor unit or trailer are raised. If it's empty then if the driver wishes, could probably out-accelerate you away from a junction or traffic lights; very much so if it's just the tractor unit (average horse-power of a tractor unit is 400hp, compared to the 60hp in your Pug 106 or 130ish in an average rep mobile, so it's no contest for us really especially as we know how to block change up!)

6) Downhill’s:

Yes we're limited to 56mph but if you get a steep enough hill the weight of the vehicle (and load) pushes you along and "through" your limiter. Don't be surprised to see trucks doing 60-70mph down an incline on a motorway without appearing to be braking. Trucks are fitted with exhaust brake's which when operated closes off a valve on the exhaust and basically speaking tries to stall the wagon and this keeps the speed down without needing to press the brake pedal.

7) Motorway congestion:

When will you people learn that driving up the backend of the vehicle in front gets you nowhere and causes even more queues? Changing lanes slows the traffic down just as bad too. Next time you're in rush hour traffic on a busy motorway and the traffic is all stop-start, look to see which lane is moving fastest. It's the inside lane. Why? Because us truckers keep a big gap from the vehicle in front and can see what the lane up ahead is doing thus leaving plennnnnnnnnnty of time to ease of the gas without the need for ever braking. You look at the outside lane and they're all 2ft from the vehicle in front, accelerating harshly, stopping that guy in the middle lane from leaping into that gap if they leave one and then when the vehicle in front brakes, they brake harshly themselves because they're so close to it they've left themselves no thinking time to see if the vehicle is lightly braking or doing an emergency stop. And so it follows back down the queue...

With the exception of a slip road off that is queuing back onto the inside lane of a motorway, the inside lane always moves the fastest. Fact. (But car and van drivers, please disregard this and stay in the middle and outer lanes)

And there endeth my rant. If any drivers still don't get it, then there's no hope for you ever. Driving an artic is no easy feat, the concentration and skill involved is tremendous and I'm sad to say that a lot of the time, it's YOU the other drivers that make it that way. Credit where credit's due though - there are a number of excellent considerate drivers (not just to truckers "needs") and to these I say a big THANKS from all us truckers for making our job easier.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

From a fellow trucker-couldn't have put it better myself.

Well said, couldn't agree more.

A car driver/bikers view.

Para 1-3. Points accepted but.... just one truck taking an eternity to overtake another on a two-lane motorway or dual carriageway can see a whole heap of other vehicles backing up behind. Loads of inconvenience for the sake of one individuals convenience. Sorry guys (will get flamed for this I know but here goes), I would not be sorry to see some sort of system implemented whereby trucks were forbidden from overtaking one another - particulalry where other traffic is heavy. Just my selfish view I'm afraid.

Para 4. (i)Agree totally. In fact, when a truck does pull out to let me on, I make a point of permitting it to pass me and letting it back in L1 before attempting to accelerate away.

Para 4(ii) Jeez this practice is just plain moronic and selfish. Cannot understand why these idiots have to overtake that one last truck/car/van etc before they make their move into the correct lane.

Para 4(iii) Absolutely. In fact this is one of those things folks should learn from experience but don't (because they are so impatient?). Don't get alongside another truck trying to make a turn - it may hurt you.

Para 7
Its amazing isn't it? How the hell some of these people have the intelligence to be bank managers, lawyers, sales executives etc is utterly beyond me. Its a classic example of how people simply don't learn because, in this instance, they are considering only what is going on in the immediate vicinity of their front bumber, not the big picture.
The whole point of all those signs indicating 60mph, then 50mph then 40mph etc is to slow the queue down because theires a choke developing ahead. But do they take any notice from behind the wheel of their Audis, Volvos, BMWs, Renault Megane Scenics etc.....no. "Lets all go piling up behind the restriction, slam the brakes on then ask ourselves...how did this happen, why has the traffic suddenly stopped? "

But you know if you are have one of the 'good' limiters and you know its going to take you a fortnight to pass the truck in front so why not back off ever so slightly and not catch it in the first place.


I wouldn't say that. A minority are, as are a minority of car/van drivers and motorbike riders. You just notice the bad ones, especially when they are not part of your group.



While jioning traffic is suppoed to give priority (not the same as give way) to traffic on the main carriageway. Traffic on the carrigway is supposed to accomodate joining traffic where possible. This means not driving past junctions 3 feet from the truck in front.


What do you expect when the alternative is to come to a stop while the queue of 18 artics comes past and risk getting rear ended by the one coming down the sliproad behind who knows his mates will let him in?


Err yes, you expect car drivers to allow you to change lanes, have a bit of give and take or you are just perpetuating the us and them attitude.



If you had anticipated the junction coming up and left a reasonable gap between yourself and the truck in front then the car would be able to join and be off without bothering you.


Again. If you werent all nose to tail in the first two lanes all doing within a whisker of 56mph then you would not have this problem. What the average car driver is faced with is a wall of truck, he is five miles from his exit. With ESP he would sit behind you all but he doesn't have ESP so assumes somewhere in the next five miles there will be an oppotunity to move to the left safely. But no, he is faced with a sloid wall of artic and becomes trapped.

Why do you feel the need to sit so close to the truck in front? Is is companionship? (I can see how you might get lonely) Is it for fuel efficiency? Whatever the reason it is wrong. Stop it.

Oh. Homer
I don't have your problems when I'm in my car, so there must be something wrong with your anticipation and forward planning!!!

On the whole I agree with your post Dratsabasti but Homer does have a point. As a car driver that can and has driven trucks I don't have the them and us mentality, I am aware of and generally considerate to the needs of trucks but can also become irritated by them. The "solid wall of truck" is one thing I find very irritating. I can't remember how many time's I've been trying to catch a glimpse of the exit number, having to align myself with a tiny gap because it is nose to tail with truck. I can't get in the left hand lane and I find I'm having to spend far too much time concentrating on looking through the gap rather than on the road. I guess it's not all the truckers fault, on the contenent most signs are above the carrageway but here the umpteen million pounds drivers put to the government isn't enough to put these up.

What utter bollocks.

Cannot begin to describe my issues with the "king of the road" over that post.

From where did you drag 'King of the road'? Ain't heard that one since the fifties, and it's not in the post.

Go on, I'm sure you can if you try.

Please enlighten us to your issues.
But before you do that, go and speak to a haulier local to you and ask if you can sit in the drivers seat of a truck, then go out as a passenger in one.
There are two side to the story, I have simply published one side.

I passed my car test in 75, didn't even think about trucks until I started driving them in the Forces, and not even much then. Since I started driving them professionally, my attitude as a car driver towards trucks has changed somewhat, mainly because I now understand what they are doing, often before they do it.
I have also driven ambulances on blues and twos, and found truck drivers to be better at letting an emergency vehicle through, despite their size.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

The one thing that most annoys car drivers is the blatant "slipstreaming".

One truck driving at less than a truck's length from the one in front cannot be safe.

I would have thought at 56 mph at least three truck lengths would be a reasonable separation distance.

Why the hell do truckers engage in what appears to be a highly irresponsible and dangerous practice?

Also, I fully understand the implications of limiters. But even if one vehicle only has a 1 mph differential over another, it should be able to pass it in a minute. Many a time I have followed trucks on the M6 duelling neck-and-neck for miles. Oh for a traffic cop to pull them over for careless driving

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Have any of the car drivers on here tried indicating to the left when faced with 'a solid wall of trucks' and decelerating slightly

It is the proper way to say please after all, and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised to find that we're always happy to let you in.

Lorry drivers leave a safe stopping distance, that we're able to calculate by the weight we're carrying and the road conditions, so why do car drivers think it's 'safe' to drop into the middle of two 44 ton vehicles and put themselves in danger?

Try asking first, by indicating and then we'll be happy to drop back and let you into the inside lane.

However, forward planning would have been better

Pat

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www.pda-uk.org

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on that. In my experience it is very rare for a truck to let a car in anywhere. this applies equally to allowing cars to join the motorway when traffic has ground almost to a standstill.



Sorry, there are lots of good points in the original post, just a few things I disagree on.

We still have not had an answer as to why every truck has to be within feet of the one in front.

I'm sorry, but it's obvious from observation that lorry drivers very often don't leave a safe stopping distance, or anything like it.

We're still waiting for an explanation of this one.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Right, explanation here...............

Lorries may be empty, fully freighted at 44 tons, have a light but 'movable load' on, and may or may not have ABS fitted.
All of these including the state of the immediate road conditions make a difference to the amount of space we need to brake safely and come to a halt before hitting the vehicle in front of us.

In a split second that a car decides to 'jump into that safe distance and brake sharply, as they always do, we have to decide
a) How much brake to apply
b) Whether to decide to risk moving the load, sometimes on to the road
c) What the condition of the road is like in a split second
d) What is behind us and how close is it, not to mention is the driver paying FULL attention to what is going on around him??
e) Whether to squash the offending car between us and the vehicle in front, who after all, is the person causing the problem.

Now in their ignorance all car drivers seem to have complete blind faith in our ability to make the CORRECT decision and to keep them safe.
Have you ever seen a car squashed between two lorries in a shunt, all of us have and I can assure you, it isn't a pretty sight?

And yet although you criticise us for our actions at every opportunity, you never cease to rely on or judgement and good driving to avoid putting you in that position in your attempts to jump a couple of places in a queue of traffic.

Next time you decide to jump in front of a lorry's bumper and brake because the one in front has slowed down, think about this post and remember just what reactions and amount of TOTAL concentration, not to mention skill, you have used in that person to possibly save your life.

And all because you want to be a few vehicles ahead

If you are happy to merge on a 'one to one' basis then you will be surprised.
And, although it may seem obvious to you, it does help to indicate.

Lorry drivers have an unwritten code of practice that many GOOD car drivers use as well, and to indicate is to ask, and will usually be acknowledged with a slowing down of speed and a quick flash of the headlights to let you in.........try it sometime and see if it works

I can never understand why some car drivers seem to HATE all lorries.

Love us or hate us we are a necessary evil, everything you eat drink or use has at some time been brought to you by a lorry and without us you wouldn't have it, even down to the car you're driving.
In bad weather conditions you follow us, relying on our judgement and expertise to read the road ahead in both fog and snow, all we ask is that you realise we have booking times to keep t to have your daily bread on the supermarket shelves.
We have planned routes that a computer tells the Traffic office and customer that we'll need x amount of hours to reach the delivery point.

We are at work, when you're driving there, and home and after 14.5 hours duty we too are tired.
Have you ever thought that the Lorry driver you're cursing at 5.30pm when you're on your way home from work has most likely been at work since 3am that morning

No, we're not at our best, but we are still legally allowed to be on the road, and still you expect prefection from us all, and that blind faith that we'll stop and allow you to apply your brakes in our 'safe space' is still there .............................should it be??

Pat

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www.pda-uk.org

I do, and it has worked for me in the past, but only when I have been driving a van.

You still didn't answer why LGV drivers drive so close to one another that they would not have time to react.

And I have seen the result of LGV tailgating, on a foggy day on the M62. First I saw of the artic in front of me it was sideways across all 3 lanes. Had I been travelling as fast as him (he passed me a little earlier and disappeared into the gloom) there would have been another collision.

And I don't hate all truck drivers, but I won't hesitate to ring the good driver line (with praise if I think it is deserved).

Homer

I have explained that..................we leave ourselves a safe braking distance between us and the lorry ahead, and it's only when the car driver decides that it's enough room to fit his/her car into, that problems happen.
Invariably whilst doing this the car driver finds they also have to brake to bring their speed down to the two lorries

I think your gripe really is not with the distance we travel between us in relation to OUR ability to stop, it's more along the lines of not leaving you the option to jump in between us and BRAKE because you have decided at the last minute that you want THIS slip road but only AFTER you've overtaken as many lorries as possible

Sounds very familiar, doesn't it?

I saw a nasty example of this only this week at 4.30am on the A45 just outside of Northampton.
One car involved, skid marks from the outside (3rd) lane, adjacent to the slip road.
In a last minute attempt to get down the slip road the driver had mounted the nearside crash barrier, and wrapped himself and the front of the car round a roadsign post.
Emergency services we're trying to get him out. and I can't help wondering WHY he did this on an emty road???

Lack of concentration?
Too much to drink?
Tired?

But I have no doubts that had I have been in the nearside lane a few moments earlier he would still have done it across my front Bumper

BTW Homer, what qualifications have you to judge the safe stopping distance of two lorries you havent driven, and have no knowledge of the load?
I wouldn't dream of assesssing the stopping distance required for your van, never having driven it.

Pat

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www.pda-uk.org

the brakes on trucks these days are very good, i would say

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http://www.nitrucking.tk

Leaving the personal attacks out of it.......

It is reaction distances, not stopping distances I am questioning.

Many LGV drivers drive within a safe reaction time, that is something I can have a good assesment of.

As for my van, sorry those days are long gone *sniff*.....