Safe Speed Forums

I think I can say I almost had my first real crash tonight...

Was on my way to McDonalds for a coffee after carol singing. Had myself, my brother, and two young guys from the church in the car with me. Coming up to the junction I start slowing. This is one I don't like having to slow too much for, because it's on a pretty steep hill, and if you slow down too much you have to struggle up the hill. Approaching the junction at a reasonable speed for a wet night I begin to indicate as usual... Brake gently to get to the right speed, go to steer round corner... Nope, not tonight Michael... Car has turned enough that I'll not stay on the road, but not enough to avoid going up the kerb/pavement and onto the grass... I went up the kerb, onto the grass and think to myself... Oh crap, I nearly crashed. Quickly get into reverse and get out of the muck and head on up the big hill to McDonalds.

Not trying to excuse my mistake, was going too fast obviously, but I can usually take that particular junction at about that speed (possibly faster), with a full car, when it's wet, and not even lose grip.

We've had the roads gritted the last few nights... I remember last winter they were using molasses in some parts of the country to help the grit stick to the road (??) and I'm just wondering is this a possible contributory factor to my brown trouser moment?

Luckily I did no real damage to the car, I've dented a wheel which I might get checked just incase I've knocked the wheel balance out or something...

I think it was just a genuine mistake in my judgement of the road conditions... I know this bit of road is slippy at the best of times (bone dry in the middle of the summer and it can be hard to actually move out of the junction at times) and because of this I tend to take it quite easy...

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Mike

If you were on or near full lock at the time the wheel hit the kerb this could have done more damage than meets the eye. Steering components will have taken much moe force than usual as things like the track rod has nowhere to go under impact, putting serious stress on ball joints and wheel bearings.

It may also have done latent damage to the tyre. I'd want it removing from the rim and checking over for damage on the inside I think.

Eek I've been goin over it in my head for the last few hours trying to work out what went so wrong that I understeered so much... Guess it was just too fast... It was certainly the biggest mistake I've made so far, and I guess I was just lucky I didn't hit someone...

Can't really remember if I was still at full lock... After looking at the mark from the impact I'm guessing it probably was though... Shall get a look at it tomorrow I hope, just make sure it's okay. Don't want to be driving around if I've wrecked something.

Thanks, *slaps his own wrist*

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Mike

Understeer I think. This is where there's not enough grip at the front to steer the intended course and the front 'ploughs on'.

It's also possible to not look where you're going and simply not steer, but that doesn't seem to fit the description.

Assuming understeer, the fundamental is that you have asked for more grip from the front tyres than they can provide. Possibly unusually low grip, possibly ice, possibly spilt diesel.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Call it experience Mike. I'd say you were lucky, but so long as you learn from it then its OK.

Its one of those things. You know you have to slow down in the wet and with a fully loaded car. Trouble is, until you lose it, you don't actually realise how much you need to slow down. You'll know next time, so don't beat yourself up too much about it.

Just out of interest (assuming you're driving a FWD), what were you doing with the throttle at the time? Any input from the engine (slowing OR accelerating) eats up grip. A tip for future would be to try to take the corner at neutral throttle in the wet. (ie neither speeding up or slowing down).

Above all, these things happen. You're OK and (hopefully) so's your car.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

If you can find a safe place to do so, it might also be useful to spend half an hour on a wet (empty) surface and deliberately induce understeer a few times so that you can learn...

1. Roughly where the limit of grip is for that vehicle,
2. How to induce understeer,
3. What to do to avoid inducing oversteer,
4. What to do to correct oversteer.

You will be surprised to find just how much (1) improves once you've sussed out (3) and (4)!!!!

The big problem is finding a suitable practice site. These days most supermarkets are open on Sundays, and even if you do find a big deserted car park there's always a chance that someone will see you hooning about and call the Old Bill out!

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

A good course on a skid pan is best.

But some of the science warns that it makes drivers more dangerous by delivering too much confidence.

The biggest benefit is that you learn to recognise low grip conditions and the onset of skidding at a much earlier stage. With this information you can usually drive around it before it develops.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I used to have a rover 200 diesel. It was like driving sound with the queen mary under the bonnet, terrible understeer and a few hairy moments.

Check the tyres, I once (in younger days) had a very near miss when I spun my car on a country road, no damage so carried on. about a week later I had a high speed blowout, I'd flat spotted the inside of one of my tyres during the spin.

You need to get the tracking checked as well otherwise you could find yourself with very bald tyres very quickly.

Sounds like there may have been something about the road that night which made it extra slippy. Diesel, or just rain after a prolonged dry spell can do that.

I echo Roger's advice - get the steering checked out - particularly the tracking, as this can quite easily be knocked out by a hard hit against a curb, as well as the tyres and wheels. This will lead to future problems and cost as the car eats tyres.

As for avoiding - the most important thing about having 4 people in the car is that your weight is significantly higher than usual (3 * 75kg = 225kg on top of car weight of an average 1100kg is a 20% extra load), therefore your momentum is higher, consequently braking and turning becomes a lot harder - not to your hands or feet, but in the amount of force required to complete the turn provided by the tyres. Lifting off may help, but I bet you lifted off anyway! Hard braking will remove any control that you may have had (less so with ABS but not eliminated).

Find a safe slippery area and practice handing on the limit - not at high speed, but by trying to push the steering too hard, and get a feel for how it reacts - and remember what it is like to lose control. Oh and have fun while at it!

In future remember that heavy loads means less control, therefore more caution, and that when grip is uncertain - especially if wet, cold and when grit is visible - then even more caution is required. 2 second gaps should become larger, slow down more for corners and allow more time for braking.

thanks guys... Yea, I said to some of the teachers in school and they were like there was probably some diesel on the road... This junction goes into a busy shopping mall, and it's used for deliveries, so chances are there probably is something on the road about 90% of the time... I feel quite crap for managing to go off the road, but I'm just glad that I didn't really endanger anyone's life or anything...

I've tried enducing the odd skid and stuff in empty car parks, might give it a go if we get any really wet nights again in the nearish future...

The tyre thing was my other possible contributory factor... The treads are grand, but they're budget tyres... I've only just got a job, so I do think the first thing I'll be getting are a set of decent tyres... I just want to see if it was the tyres that caused it...

As far as I remember I had lifted off both brakes and accelerator... The wheels were just steering... Car has no abs, so I'm always concious of locking wheels and trying to corner at the same time... I had an escape route now that I think of it, obviously there was some grip when the angle of the wheels was a bit less, so I think if I had flicked it the other way I might have been able to avoid hitting the kerb - road was totally empty...

Anyway... Thanks guys, had to be the scariest moment I've had in the car yet... Somewhat scary seeing a huge grass bank coming at you...

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Mike