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I'm not sure that open debate is any longer possible, such is the fervour and the faith. It's hard, if not impossible, to have 'open debate' about religion - and that's exactly what AGW theory is becoming. It's no longer a matter of facts and analysis, more a question of faith.

Oh yeah, and if we pay we will be saved. This isn't science - it's god getting a makeover.

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Paul Smith
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The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yeah, you guys are right! If a topic is too complex to be broken down into tabloid soundbites to aid our comprehension, then the powers that be should not concern themselves with disclosure or public debate, they should keep it to themselves and just introduce whatever measures they see fit in order to deal with it.


[/sarcasm]

Firstly, do I trust what our Government tells us?

ans: Not bloody likely and I don't see Ministers doing much to give up their taxpayer funded 3.0l Omegas or Range rovers.

Secondly, is AGW man-made?

Considering we still can't tell whether it's going to bloody well rain or not so what use is a model? I would say that no-one really knows. Historically however, it would appear that the weather has been somewhat of a natural occurance and that people who believe they can change/prevent a natural occurance are up their own asses.

The bottom line is, the Green lobby and Government are able to bully the rest of us on what is a maybe and that's why I will continue to remain a sceptic.

How about this position:

I dont care if AGW exists as I will be dead in a few years and so I'm going on driving my huge 4x4 and sportscar. This is the "selfish hedonist" argument and is as valid as any other point of view given the propensity for this subject to produce extreme reactions.

Still our fantastically clever children (record exam results, you know!) will find a solution.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

True! If only we could always use the "it's for security" excuse that our politicians appear to eager to use.

Sad but sums up the truth nicely

So because the "believers" can't prove their case they want the "deniers" to prove a negative.

Is it? Or is that just what the AGW deniers would have us believe in an attempt to muddy the waters further still? After all, the hyperbole and invective all seems to originate from quarters such as this; amongst all the clucking noises that surround this post the only remotely honest one is this...



All I see from the AGW theorists is pained attempts to explain the issue (as they see it of course) in terms we can understand; what are they supposed to do, give up because some won't accept what they see as being absolutely unequivocal? (Sound familiar by the way )

And lets not get side-tracked by the tax thing either. The fact that our witless govcenrment only ever sees TAX as being the route to achieving their aims, doesn't always mean the aims are invalid.



Eh? In which case the debate could go...

AGW Theroist: AGW is man induced because X

Denier: I don't believe that

AGW Theroist: AGW is man induced because Y

Denier: I don't believe that

AGW Theroist: AGW is man induced because Z

Denier: I don't believe that

Surely the theorist is entitled to ask for an explanation as to why the denier doesn't believe?

pity they can't make up their minds.

Hmm.

Bellamy is against wind turbines per his recent article in all press .. not only the Waily/

Weather is one thing. Climate is another. Weather is daily and the result of pressure forces. Climate is measured by different criteria .. per Professor Emeritus Stone of London Uni.

Now part of the problem is based on



Um.. this is a machine and it depends on the software used and the data input into it. It cannot compute or add God's Will or Mother Nature's tantrum into its "calculations" and is thus flawed by virtue of limitation.


If I used my computer models to predict viral epidemics.. I once posted .. it would be "Biblical Day of Judgement meeting the Apocalypse meeting the Book Of Revelation and the number of the Beast.. and the Black Death" .. all rolled into one!

It could not happen of course.

But .. blaming the car for the planet's ills is easy.

What about shipping our waste to China who see this as "business" and whilst their "recycling" quote seems "value price" -it;s cost to the planet rather undermines the ethical value of the Western guilt conscience of recycling.

I note that CW/C+./Rennradfahrer/Cyclosport/velo vert.... all tell me to try out cycling off the beaten track .. and tell me which budget flights to go for...

They also recommend umpteen bikes and gadgets to me.. All of these are produced at a cost to the planet . And most travel more air miles than the Kenyan deep red and scented roses I was almost tempted to buy my wife and mother. I settled on a small bottle of Lakeland perfume - made locally and in tune with our natural beauty.

It's really lip service and perhaps we should really look at working hours and implementing more flexibility .. allowing more "work from home" days.

For record . entire family do their bit.. and we follow a "waste not want not " ethic and regard waste as "criminal"

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I can't predict the weather or the climate but how about a quick wager that 2007 will see some bright spark mp try to introduce a Climate Change Deniers Bill.

remember you heard it here first.

I have to say that I do agree with the sentiment expressed earlier in this thread. If the science is irrefutable then......why jump on the deniers?

I have read that this year's boxing day hunts have been the most popular in a generation. I predict a similar effect with 4x4's. I'm swapping the TT and the polo for one.

The green argument can also be descibed as follows:
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Post hoc is similar to affirming the consequent. It can be expressed as follows:

When A occurs, B occurs.
Therefore, A causes B.

which of cause leads to the regression fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_fallacy

The logical flaw is to make predictions that expect exceptional results to continue as if they were average.

When his pain got worse, he went to a witchdoctor, after which it subsided a little. Clearly, he benefited from the witchdoctor's powers

which because nobody in reality has any evidence, the only conclusion that can be sought from the proposition of the pro=GW scientists, is one of Reductio Ad Absurdum for both parties.

This just reinforces the "religious" analogy of this subject. You must believe. If you ask why, you don't believe...

For light relief, here's a bit of Clarkson for you from the Top Gear website:

"I don't mind if you want to buy a 4x4, I really don't. I think you're a bit of a loony if you have one in central London, but would I stop you? No. Because it's no skin off my nose, and even if it is true that you're making the world hotter, good frankly. I like it when it's warm. This summer was lovely and if the world's petrolheads and school run mums helped create that, I think we should pat ourselves on the back."

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Hehe, good old Clarkson, If it annoys those idiots from Transport 2000, i'm up for it too.

threads like this tend to get me a bit bogged down, it can be a bit much for my feeble brain to cope with.

AGW, probably something I missed, but is it ---- Global Warming? What's the A part?

Anyway, thre trouble with any environmental issue is there never seems to be any consensus on what to do.

CO2 emmisions bad, ok so we will use nuclear to power the lights. Hell no, that's worse. Ok then, wind turbines, naar they're no good, they look ugly, birds crash into them and besides it takes more power to build them than they ever make. hmm, I just want the lights to come on.

Short haul planes are bad, but don't 100 people travelling on a train use less fuel to go from London to Newcastle than if they went by car? So use the train, balls to that, costs a small fortune they don't run on time, you're not guaranteed a seat and I've got a car anyway.

Turn your TV off standby, it's uses less electricty. That's a no brainer. No hang on, the power buzzing through it on stand-by justs gets converted to heat and heats the house. Oh Jesus.

Don't throw stuff away, we're running out of land fill and there is no need to waste stuff and the power needed to produce it. No, no, there's loads of land fill and it uses more energy to recycle you plastic than make new plastic and recycled plastic is no good anyway.

Don't drive a big car use a smaller one. Surely no arguement to that. Nope, I have 3 kids and they can't possible fit in a Golf. Of course they can you prat. Oh but what about the horse and the caravan I must drag everywhere. Well shoot the poxy nag and burn the caravan. Simple.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I would just like to go through life without leaving too big of a mess behind.

...and the moral of the story is....


YOU CAN'T PLEASE ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME!

I'm intrigued by the statistics trotted out this summer - such and such is the highest so and so recorded for 100 years - so what caused those "record" figures 100 years ago.....?
This is NOT the first global warming event recorded even in "recent" history - we had one in the middle ages! I dont recall anyone blaming motorists and humans for that one - although it IS theoretically possible that increased farming of animals, deforestation of areas for crops, and burning wood for heating could have been to blame!

And in the papers today (despite it being known for over 4 years - NEWS??), it said we were due for a close call with an asteroid in 2019 or 2028 - which if things DONT go to plan, will make all this discussion pointless anyway!!

http://meteorite.org/ has the relavent links to NASA sites!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Yes, this is a common observation. Fact is, that 'event' was teeny weeny, almost insignificant, compared with what we are currently experiencing.

What was the event that wiped out the dinosaurs then? an effing macaroon?

perhaps you'd like to post a link to some of this warming that we're supposedly experiencing (central england heat island excluded). It seems that the ocean and satellite data are showing an unfortunate - for the doom sayers - reduction in global temperatures.

While you're at it you may also like to explain how greenland got its name, how they managed to sail around greenland, and how they used to grow grapes in central England if the previous warming was "teeny weeny, almost insignificant" compared to the current and yet we can't do now what they used to do then.

Even the current rubbish in the papers about canada falling apart due to "global warming" finished with "this hasn't happened for 30 years"... silly fools back then didn't think to blame global warming for that because they were too busy trying to scare us with the coming ice age.