Safe Speed Forums

I've just seen a post on another forum that disturbs me. That post claimed that you can legally drive in this country even though banned provided you have a driving license from another country in addition to the UK one which was suspended.

The thread concerned was started by a UK citizen returning shortly from the middle east to face prosecution for driving in excess of 100 mph on a UK motorway. After several replies along the lines of "don't drive to court unless you take a passenger who can drive you home", one reply claimed that the speeder could get an IDP on the basis of his middle-eastern license, on which he could then legally drive in this country even though banned.

So, if that is true, a drink driver who had (say) both UK and US licenses could drive to court, park in the court car park, receive a 12-month ban, get back into his car and legally drive home

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Will

Yep its called driving license tourism...

This what concerns me more is that non-uk driving lisence holders are not subject to penalty points....so if you get caught on camera, find an asylum seaker with a driving license to take the hit. You will never hear from the SCP again...

We have a french girl in the office who had 2 NIPs. never got taken further

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Speed camera policy Kills

I haven't looked it up to verify, but I'm pretty certain that the court issues a disqualification. If you then drive the offence is driving while disqualified. I don't see any other licence coming into this.

I've also noticed similar wording in UK insurance policies over the years. Insurance is still valid if you don't have a driving licence, but not if you are disqualified.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

But are you disqualified from driving, or merely disqualified from holding a licence?

If the latter, then I guess you could drive on a legitimate foreign licence, though I suspect you'd have a problem with insurance, as Paul says.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I'd considered those points except that I thought the courts suspended or revoked your driving license (as opposed to disqualifying you from driving). I suspected that a driving license was a qualification to drive and that provided you hold such a qualification that was not suspended or revoked, you are qualified to drive. I assumed that being qualified to drive and being disqualified from driving are mutually exclusive. However, I fully see your point (which makes perfect sense and is in the spirit of the rules).

On the subject of insurance, the wording on my policy is:
Although treating a legal statement as a boolean expression can be misleading, I read that to mean that provided you hold a license to drive the first part is true and so the insurance cover is valid even though you are disqualified from driving!

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Will

To drive in UK on an international driving permit you must have a native driving licence from that country.

Your permit allows you to drive in UK.

However a UK resident cannot drive in the UK on an IDP (Motor vehicle International Circulation Order 1975) , therefore if he is disqualified from holding or obtaining a UK licence, he cannot then default to his IDP.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

What if a UK resident does not have a UK driving licence but one from another EU country ?

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Speed camera policy Kills

The case in question is an ex-pat living in Saudi. Allegedly, he holds a UK license (obtained before emigration) but also holds a Saudi license. The person is a Saudi resident who travels back to UK for a few weeks each year to visit relatives. So, his IDP is by virtue of his Saudi license -- not his UK license.

IOW, the chap's UK license is redundant because he can rely on his Saudi license and IDP. Although the UK courts may slap a disqualification on his UK driving license, I suspect that they can't touch his Saudi license, and so suspect that his IDP would remain valid. However, whether he could use it in UK may be another matter.

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Will

Sec 103 RTA 1988 states that a person is guilty of an offence if, while disqualified from holding or obtaining a licence, he

*obtains a licence
*drives a motor vehicle on a road.

Seems quite unequivocal. It means that 'disqualified from holding or obtaining a licence' does mean disqualified from driving on a road. If a EEC driver is disqualified in this country, he will not be allowed to drive here. He can still drive in his own country.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

How do the courts go about banning someone if they hold a foreign driving licence. I know you cannot add points to foreign licences.

FYI...

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Speed camera policy Kills

I'm not big on the court admin procedural side of things regarding foreign drivers, but if a court disqualifies someone from driving, this will be evident on their records. If we subsequently check that person driving and he is shown to be disqualified on PNC, then he gets locked up.

The point you've made in your quote is relevant, I think, to people who having been disqualified in one country, move to another country to obtain a licence to drive. They still will not be able to drive in this country if this is the country they were originally disqualified in.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Thanks for you help. I think I have got a handle on it now.

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Speed camera policy Kills

IanH, a hypothetical for you. What about a UK passport holder who is resident somewhere else and has a driving license for another country? Specifically I'm thinking about ex-pats or people with dual nationality who have learned to drive here, but have moved abroad and now have a license from their country of residence. If I've got this right, they wouldn't actually have a UK license anymore, but can come and drive here on the IDP since they're no longer residents. Obviously you can't put points on their UK license since it no longer exists, so presumably a ban is impractical for the same reason. From the sounds of things they're pretty much fireproof as far as minor traffic offences are concerned. Or can the courts stick points on the IDP? Basically what I'm asking is what would happen if a UK citizen, who is now a resident of Canada or somewhere and has a Canadian license, got caught a ton up on the M25?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I lived in the US for some years, so will throw in a few titbits here...

As SS says, the British courts use the term "disqualification". In the US, it's "license suspension". Your license could be suspended in one state, but you could still get a license in another state - although this is a grey area. If moving from one state to another, you are supposed to obtain a license in your new state by surrendering your existing license, which is what I did in 1981 when relocating from Illinois to California. I didn't have to take the CA driving test, but I still had to do the written test. However, one guy I used to work with, whose driving got him into trouble on a frequent basis, had about four US licenses. He moved around from state to state in his work, and each time he was about to leave a state, would sit the driving test for that state without surrendering any existing license. That way, he could drive on an out of state license wherever he was, and it was harder for law enforcement to take away his driving privileges.

If a British person living in the US had been disqualified in the UK, but had an American license as I had, could he use this to rent a car in the UK when visiting? The car hire company would have no way of checking whether he was disqualified. I know from setting up email addresses that there are many people who have the same name as me, even though it's not John Smith. If said driver were to get stopped by the police, he could show his US license and car rental documents, and the policeman might never even know that the driver was in fact disqualified by a UK court.

Off topic: The American aerobatics/aviation expert Bob Hoover was still performing after he had passed his 70th birthday. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) didn't like this, and sent a two man possé to seize Bob's pilot's license just as he was preparing for a display. But Bob wasn't beaten. He went to Australia and was able to acquire an Australian pilot's license and ratings and then return to making aerobatic performances in America - and the FAA was powerless to prevent it.

My understanding is that they cannot put any endorsements on a non UK driving licence, however they could impose a period of disqualification, and/or a fine depending on the driving severity.

From my experience of foreign driver speeding / minor traffic offences at court, the courts tend to work on each specific case on its merits, depending largely on what the driver's plans are. Often the temporary removal of their liberty is seen as sufficient penalty and no further penalty is issued, often the driver is fined and sent on his way. I've brought in a French driver who argued that he was told he would be OK doing 130-140kph in this country. He translated the KPH advice 1:1 with MPH! I stopped him trying his hardest to part the morning (moderately busy) traffic at 130mph. While talking to him on the hard shoulder I was greeted by numerous beeps of approval by passing motorists. I brought him in to the station, and on to court, where he promised he would not drive again in this country, he was fined the contents of his wallet (£280) and sent on his way.
I have had foreign drink drivers in court who have been banned.



It can be a problem, but simply because something is difficult to check or investigate doesn't mean it's right.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

That's about what I thought. Still, if they're flying away again anytime soon a ban isn't going to mean much really. Would the court take account of that a give out a really brutal fine instead? The other thing I meant to ask was if the fixed penalty system is used for foreign license holders. What would happen to them for the same speeding offence that would cost me 60 quid and 3 points? A heavier fine since the points can't be applied? Or is it always an appearance in front of the magistrates, even for minor offences? Obviously this is another potential weakness of cameras. A two week delay might well be too late to do anything at all, so I'm really thinking of what would happen if, say, that French driver you pulled had been 10mph over instead of nearly double. (What a headcase btw, you'd think the speed of all the other traffic would give a tiny hint, even if they don't have smaller mph speedo markings and he was too daft to check it out properly before he came over )

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Currently the situation is that any foreign driver not resident in the country has to be arrested under 25 PACE to be dealt with for the offence. In practical terms it just doesn't happen. The reaction of many of our custody sergeants to us bringing in a foreign speeder is none too complementary . Hopefully we'll soon be able to deal with the foreign driver at the roadside, as many of our European counterparts can.
Foreign licence holders resident in this country can be reported for summons. I'm trying to recall if they can get points added to a 'nominal' UK driver number at DVLA. I'll find out, or someone else on the forum might beat me to it.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian