Safe Speed Forums

No, no and thrice no!

See my reply to Robin. We don't need to climb cliffs. We just need to make steady progress.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Granted, but in my world this behavior is not something that is imparted, in its entirity, overnight either.

The first thing to do is clearly to stop the rot in current drivers, but policymakers should not fall into the trap of letting new drivers go down the same path before they receive treatment. If we did nothing about existing drivers but produced safe new drivers, then the problem would be solved in about 50 years!

This topic has been touched on elsewhere with reference to speed and drink-drive courses, that are not provided to drivers until they have proven themselves to be a 'problem'.

The main difference between a pilot and a driver (besides the obvious third dimension ) is that until the day I retire I will not stop being trained, assessed, examined and standardised. While clearly the same thing would be prohibitively expensive for the millions of UK drivers, there is no reason why a 'lighter' version could not be implemented. I would at least like to see the driving test cease to be the one-shot 'rite of passage' into full driverdom that it is today.

I know we have discussed many other ideas regarding driver training, and I will not regurgitate them here, but it is clear enough that catching drivers early and instilling good practice is far preferable to remedial action later.

I appreciate that our roads are relatively safe, but if they were safe enough that we could all throw our hands up and go home then this site would not exist! As it is, we can see the downwards curve beginning to reverse already, and noone wants it to become a parabola!

My point is that, while a 'nudging' approach may be the way forward for existing drivers, there is no reason why a step-change could not be implemented for new drivers.

A step change for new drivers is just a nudge to the whole system.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Each time we venture down this path I am no nearer to seeing any flesh on the bones of the concept of 'steady progress' or 'nudging the system'.
How do we achieve this?
How do we sell the ideas to drivers in a way that they can connect with, when they probably won't see any need to? How do they analyse high level ideals without identifying specific behaviours, in terms of do's and do nots?
How do we dissuade drivers from engaging in activities that are likely to distract them from the process of driving. How do we convince them that it will?
What guidlines do we issue to the police as to which behaviours they should target, and which they should ignore without the risk that the 'offender' dissapears out of their sight and crashes?

By way of a comparison the German system is much more prescriptive than our own in terms of what a driver must and must not do, and what he must carry in his car at all times.

There's a lot of important stuff in the manifesto.

But I do struggle to know how to explain my thoughts on this to you. You just don't seem to think probabilistically.

Remember micrometric influence?

Then consider this illustration:



And ask yourself: What are the factors that affect the steepness of the slope and the rate of falloff for an average driver?

I know what those factors are - they are information and beliefs that arrive through cultural influences. If we enhance the culture people will learn more quickly and stop learning later, on average.



Our skilled traffic police are excellent at spotting risky behaviours. In fact most experienced drivers aren't bad at it. We should ask the police to 'chase risk' not to 'chase regulations'. The regulations are a tool not an objective.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Oooh, just had an idea for a TV ad:

Guy walking down the street, with guy right by him walking so close they are almost touching, well inside his personal space, caption "You wouldn't do this on foot", guy being followed then stops and the other guy bumps into him and gets a bloody nose, "So why do it on the roads?"

Think!

Does this mean that Paul @ SS is condoning use of mobile phones while driving?

Whether right or wrong we all "have a responsibilty to drive safely at all times" and if that means no phones then so be it.

I can only judge what I see on the road as a professional driver because as any lorry driver will tell you due to the height of tha cab we see a lot more than car drivers eg. one guy passed me a couple of weeks ago on the M6 doing approx. 50mph in a line of traffic and using a lap top in the third lane!

He was obviously in control (or so he thought) and no doubt will say he knew what he was doing me thinks not!

Is it safe to drive one handed while dialling a number on the phone as I have not tried this trick (I take the view that I can,t look at a phone to dial & watch the road ahead at the same time) maybe I am not as good as the ones who can!

It is the police who say that they see the results of tricks like this are we to say they are telling porkies we only have their word for the accident stats as they are the ones who attend the accidents!

Ad Infinitum!

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Nope. I'm disagreeing with the law and the official interpretation of the perfectly reasonable science. Not at all the same as condoning the practice.

In fact I'm considerably further away from 'condoning the practice' than the law, because I'm calling for caution to be applied to hands-free phoning. The law says that hands-free phoning while driving is perfectly OK.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No, I simply believe I that have less of an unswerving faith in the probability that we can encourage, through some esoteric culture change, a willingness to develop better attitudes towards a task that for most is just a means to an end. You may as well try to encourage people to improve their table manners when they way they do it it now gets the food into their mouths.

And I ask again, why do the Germans have a much more rule based system than we do? How do they manage?

But if that were true then crash rates would be similar in all countries of similar 'economic status'. Clearly they aren't.



It may be that the rules based system is more suited to the Germanic temperament. It may be that some rules are more damaging than others. It may be that the rules are fairly harmless until they are supported by lies and spin that affect beliefs.

Anyway the Germans are lagging our safety standards, although they are catching up fast.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I can see why you may be sceptical. But ask yourself why we happen to have more or less the safest roads in the world. Paul believes it is culture and the influence of Hendon. I'm not sure. But - the fact must have some explanation. If we can identify what it is - and do more of it (or reinforce whatever "it" is) - that must play out in improved safety.

I see the point Paul but I am still of the mind that even the "best driver" (as we all think we are the best driver lets face it) still cannot drive one handed and dial / hold a conversation plus keep the vehicle under full control all at the same time!

Some say only women can do that (ooh have I just opened a can of worms?).

Ad Infinitum!

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

We have a hangover from the past, where drivers obeyed the rules of the road and tried to drive properly bringing full attention to the task simply because it was the right thing to do. That attitude is still present but is being eroded by modern thinking which sees obeyance of the law and the rules as some sort of weakness.
Why do we seem to be seeing more drivers jumping red lights? Because they are sticking two fingers up at red light cameras? Convenient for the argument but a little fanciful, particualrly as it is happening around here and I don't know of any red light cameras (not saying there aren't any). No, jumping the lights offers an immediate apparent advantage to the individual. They do it, get away with it, someone else sees this and so the rot sets in.

But that's exactly what you get when the rules aren't worthy of respect.

Why would we need to look for any other explanation?

[ I hope this isn't going round in circles... ]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It is because we fundamentally disagree on the root causes of the disrespect. It is my view that even if we had left things exactly as they were (in terms of enforcement of the rules) 20 years ago we would still be seeing the erosion in safe driving attitudes we are currently experiencing because of the wider cultural influences that detrmine how people behave as a whole.

I more or less agree with that, and we talked about an 'elastic connection' a couple of days ago.

But I STILL hold road safety policy responsible for a very significant proportion (i.e. 'the lion's share') of the loss of respect we see on the roads.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Ok that's a bit much, though I will confess to, in the past, in my stupid days, having had a laptop open on the passenger seat displaying a map and/or directions. I didn't interact with the thing whilst moving though.



The trick there is to dial without looking, then all you need is a quick glance to check the number is correct, it takes no longer than checking your speedo. I have done this in the past, sure it sometimes takes a couple of minutes to dial the number but it's better than compromising safety by staring at the phone to see where the keys are. I'm sure than someone 10 years younger than me could probably compose an entire text message without looking at the phone once and get it accurate enough. Wouldn't fancy trying it myself though!.

I think you're describing an effect of over-regulation. It may exist but is it a cause of crashes? If you look at the crash causation data, I think you'll find that the great majority do not involve rule violations.

I don't believe thats so, IMHO I am describing the effects of a society wide attitude problem.



No, but they stem from the same root cause - attitude violations. Failure to bring full attention and concentration to the task.

I don't think this is true. In my experience there was more rule breaking in the past.