Safe Speed Forums

Do car-derived vans actually say "car-derived van" on the V5, or do they just say "panel van" like my Dispatch?

FWIW, the Dispatch is built on the same chassis and running gear as the Synergie, which makes the Synergie a van-derived car or my Dispatch a car-derived van whichever way the law looks at it. In my case the MGW is a little over 2 tonnes, so 50/60/70 applies. However, I understand that you can downgrade a vehicle just by telling DVLA the new limit and applying a new VIN plate. If that's so, I could get higher speed limits from little more than a paper exercise if any van for which there is a corresponding car is legally "car-derived".

_________________
Will

Ditto.

My Caddy is AFAICT derived from the Golf platform, yet is NOT classed as car-derived.

Yet the larger Mercedes Vito is apparently derived from a C Class so is C car-derived

What's the definition of a campervan then? does it have to have rear windows.

Can I buy a Ford transit, throw a matress in the back, tell the DVLA it's a campervan and then drive at 70 on a dual carriageway.

If so does it stop being a campervan if I remove the matress? do I have to inform the DVLA every time it is removed?

VOSA have a document that gives guidance on what is a motorcaravan to assist them in deciding should DVLA require their adjudication. Basically, the changes must be sufficient to constitute a real change of primary purpose and there must be at least:

• Side windows further to the rear than the driving position
• Somewhere to sleep - a bed of at least six feet in length
• Somewhere to cook
• Washing facilities (a sink) with a water supply
• Somewhere to eat sat at a table
• Somewhere to store clothes etc. (either a wardrobe and/or cupboard and/or drawer space.)

The modifications must be "permanent" but the facilities don't need to be available at the same time. For example, you can make the bed from the seats, table, etc.

Unfortunately, I can't find the document that VOSA sent me when I was considering converting my van, but some of their decisions surprised me. For example, there was a Mazda Bongo auto-freetop that had the back row of seats ripped out and replaced by a "Camping Cube" one side and a small chest of drawers on the other. The centre row was replaced by two swivelable captain chairs. To me, that vehicle had everything needed but VOSA said that the changes were not sufficient to change its primary purpose from passenger vehicle to accommodation. They were clear that "day vans" don't qualify as motorcaravans.

No. The VOSA guidelines are designed to disallow "camp-bed in the back" conversions.

If you do an accepted conversion then it remains a motorcaravan until you tell DVLA otherwise. However, a change of body type is (like colour or engine swap) a significant change and you are thus required to inform both DVLA and your insurers if you remove the accommodation facilities.

_________________
Will

Doesn't this thread prove in a nutshell how farcical the obsession with numerical compliance has become!

Prior to the speed kills days, I doubt if anyone either knew, or much less cared that a transit type van was subject to a reduced speed limit. And yet they managed to transport deliveries around the country in relative safety.

Now we have a debate as to what limit applies to a certain vehicle, and nobody is really certain!

I've long felt the same about this idiotic law - indeed, I frequently cite it to people who try to tell me that speed limits have been carefully considered by people who know a lot more about it than I do before being decided upon!

(yeah, right)!

Now, apart from the camper van paradox (which perfectly illustrates the idiocy of this law), the whole "car-derived van" bit it total cr4p.

I work with Renault kangoos, Citroen Berlingos (which is also the Peugeot Partner), Mercedes Vitos, Peugeot Experts (which are also the Fiat Scudo and the Citroen Dispatch) and so on.

I can categorically state that the major manufacturer DO NOT set out to make EITHER a car OR a van and then go on to develop the other sort. It just doesn't work like that! Both are ALWAYS done in paralell. The reasons for this are mainly to do with type approval. The standard a car has to meet are much tougher than a van so the manufacturer tends to design with both in mind right from the start. They might LAUNCH the van (or car) version first in any particular country but that doesn't mean to say the other variant was developed later!

If I got stopped for speeding in a van version of something I also knew was a car, I think I'd probably go to court armed with the approval documents and see what they had to say then!

Hi all. I'm new here and found this place while trying to find out about how the new 2008 laws will affect me. I drive a 7.5tonne MAN. It is a Y reg so (as far as I can tell) will NOT have to have a limiter fitted. The question I'm raising here is whether the 3rd lane ban and lower limits will apply to me. The only info I have found on various government and VOSA pages only relate to 'in scope' vehicles...... As mine is NOT 'in scope' (By being first used before 1st October 2001) I am at a loss. I'm guessing the regulations WILL apply, but I simply won't have to have the limiter fitted. I am fully aware of the current laws and how they apply, but nothing states clearly whether ANY of the new legislation will affect me. Another thought is, are the limits for single/dual carriageways changing to come in-line with HGV regs or not??????

(Sorry if this seems like a high-jack, but I thought it was inline with the subject of this thread)

It seems that the lower limits apply to you:
http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/DefensiveDriving/Speed/UK_Speed_limits.html

As for the "third lane":
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/23.htm#239

Yeah, I know all that. That is as the law stands at the moment. I want to know HOW the 2008 changes will affect me! At the moment I CAN use lane 3, and I CAN do 70 on a motorway. But when the new laws come into force, because my 7.5 tonne will NOT have a limiter fitted, will I still be bound by the 56mph limit and 'no lane 3' ban??

According to this, you may well have to abide by the no-third-lane rule and the speed limit for said vehicles even if your truck is not fitted with one (in 2008)

Nice find!! So at the moment, nothing has been decided for my vehicle, but it looks like it will come into force that I will have to abide by the same rules. Thanks for the input!!!! Any ideas about A-road limits?? Are THEY gonna fall to the same as for HGV's??? Cos all I've seen so far just talks about motorways.........

Hang on a minute, does this new law mean that luton vans are going to get the same limits as 44 tonners?

I guess this one is an attempt to make the SCPs job easier, no more looking at a photograph of a goods vehicle and trying to guess whether it's over 7.5 tonnes or not.

What about 3.5 tonne Transit vans?

It doesn't look like it. It looks like the speed limits on m/ways and duals stay as they are (for vans under 3.5 tonne)

You'll note that the speed limits on single c roads are max 50 though ?

It also look like (*) the speed on m/ways is being changed to thwart any attempt to use vehicles that are exempt to gain a "commercial advantage"

so it looks like the govt minions are prepared to interfere with motorway speed limits again purely in the name of control freakery

_________________
Richard Ceen
We live in a time where emotions and feelings count far more than the truth, and there is a vast ignorance of science (James Lovelock 2005)

Agreed completely. I succeeeded last year in fighting a charge of driving a Mercedes Vito Dualiner ( the one with a 2nd row of doors in the sides with windows ) at over 60 on a DC. Trafpol insisted it wasn't a car derived van so was a van and subject to 60. CPS initially insisted it was van as decribed on the veh reg doc. I argued that as the description was 'taxation Class' it had no relevance to Cons & use issues and by makers description it was a 'Dual Purpose vehicle" subject to 70 on a DC. CPS then agreed with this in court and dropped charges.

_________________
Richard Ceen
We live in a time where emotions and feelings count far more than the truth, and there is a vast ignorance of science (James Lovelock 2005)

We convert Vitos at work. I have all the type approval documentation and the whole concept of "car derived" or "van derived" is complete tosh. It's not like Mercedes developed one and then turned it into the other - they were both done side by side and right from the drawing baord it was always intended to have passenger (EC category "M1") and light goods (EC category "N1") versions of it! I've often wondered if I ever got stopped in one for 60 on an "A" road whether I could produce it's European Certificate of Conformity in court (that confirms it's a "car") and see if they'd accept it!

Ironically, we take other vehicles (again of which there is a passenger version and a van version) and turn them into taxis. I wonder if any cabbies have ever been stopped and told that they're driving a vehicle of which there is also a van version available?!

Mind, every cloud has a silver lining.

I had always treated my old Transporter as a "Car" without windows. I had never really considererd it as an "LGV" as such.

Since it is in fact an LGV with the annoying and uneccessary speed restrictions which go with it (Which hardly apply since with an ashmatic 1.6 non-turbo diesel I rarely drive more than 50 anyway) I guess i can use the Bus/LGV/Taxi lanes that are a common feature round here with impunity.

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

No Homer - it says 'Taxation Class' on the V5 which has no legal meaning about what is a Construction & Use issue.

_________________
Richard Ceen
We live in a time where emotions and feelings count far more than the truth, and there is a vast ignorance of science (James Lovelock 2005)