Safe Speed Forums

Hi all,

I was hoping you may have some suggestions for me.

I work for a rural Police force as a Police Community Support Officer.

There is a particular stretch of road that is very clear from one end (the end that many speed on) then it turns in to a very residential road, with children often playing football in the road.

We had a very minor accident recently, but it highlights the dangers of speeding motorists and ignorance from the parents of the kids.

I though, what better place to come for some varied suggestions, than a website that is against conventional speed restrictions.

There is obviously the speed camera, mobile camera route, but perhaps something with a little less emphasis on fines and enforcement may be better, any ideas??

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www.pcsoforum.co.uk

Advise the parents that playing (football) in the road is dangerous and unwise.

Even if <some scheme> halved the speed of traffic the danger would remain as long as the kids are doing that.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Does it. It's very easy to say "think how much worse it could have been", but think why wasn't it much worse? Why is this the worst incident? Could it be that drivers are actually coping with the danger, speeding along the clear section and slowing for the hazard?

I realise there will be calls for you to be seen to be doing something but is there really a problem?

How about some VAS signs or simply "Slow down" signs on the lamp posts

You know the one.. it has a little hand on it to say "slowing down" as well.

Paint SLOW on the tarmac.

Little sign "We thank you for driving carefully through our village" type.

Liaise with the schools .. over GREEN CROSS code und dangers of playing kick ball on a busy road. Are there no playing field or parks where you can encourage the children to have their healthy fun there?

Promote COAST if you stop anyone for a quiet word. Friendly non threatening advice und chat can work wonders with some folk out there you know!

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I appreciate both views.
The fact is, we are paid and in many ways directed by the local community, sitting back and saying “well Sh@@T happens, there obviously isn’t a problem with the motorists speeding, and probably a one off, it’s obviously the kids and parents mistake” well wouldn’t go down very well, it’s also, in my view, not completely true.

I have seen motorists driving at excessive speeds on this particular road, not just the clear bit but also the residential part.

I was planning to give a talk at the local school about road safety, its something we do from time to time.
Perhaps a letter highlighting the accident to the parents.

But the problem still remains of motorists occasionally speeding through a residential area at often 60mph.
I don’t want to suggest we do mobile speed cameras, I also don’t want to be seen to be anti-motorist, just want a solution to a problem without a massive impact on any of the parties.

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www.pcsoforum.co.uk

It's good advice, thanks!

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www.pcsoforum.co.uk

Hi, welcome, and thanks for giving us the chance to make suggestions!

How about (if you can get the funding and / or planning consent) a "kids" sign just before the start of the area where they tend to play? Also, as has been suggested, a VAS BUT (don't know if you can get them) one that
(a) only illuminates during the hours when the kids might be playing out and
(b) has a picture of the "kids" sign (or some wording to that effect) when it does light up rather than just re-displaying the speed limit (which, I guess, is 30)?

Obviously, as has been said, the best solution is to keep the kids off the road in the first place. People seem to think that drivers should be responsible enough to avoid hitting them but parents don't need to be responsible enough to keep them off the highway!

I firmly believe that if you don't treat drivers like idiots, they might not behave like idiots and start assessing hazards for themsleves! Of course, there will always be the ones who are completely incapable / unwilling to do that for themselves but I don't know what the solution is for them. I doubt any amount of signage / enforcement would make much difference. We had a fatal recently round here (rural area again) where a 14 year old girl was killed in the car she (and at least 4 others) were joyriding in. Needless to say there is clamour for more cameras but as she was standing up with her head through the sunroof when the car hit the tree, I'm not sure any number of cameras would have helped!

The few who 'speed' at 60mph through a residential area aren't normal responsible motorists. They are nutters.

If you have a problem with nutters (boy racers, stolen cars, thrill-seeking bikers) then the nutters must be targetted.

Sticking up a camera and catching a lot of responsible motorists does nothing to solve the problem and simply displaces the nutters. This is one small but important component of the benefit claimed 'at camera sites'.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The talk at the school and a politely worded letter to parents advising them of the dangers of playing on a road would perhaps be a good start.

Has no one campaigned for a proper play area for these children..or encouraged them to use one if available?

Wildy's advice is sound




Have you mentioned this to the guv and trafpol unit guvs in your patch? We do monitor reports here - and we target the nutcases only. Professional judgement.. There's little point in nit picking the minor transgressions - and if we pull these repeated blippers closing in our particular tolerance threshold - it's more based on something about that drive which made us think this person just needs a quiet reminder but no further action.

But if we observed 60 mph in a 30 mph residential .. we would hammer down hard on these - and really you need to get your RPU to do an audit on this road - and the observation of a marked car clearly sniffing around and auditing and evaluating the situation can also be effective in just calming these idiots down a bit.

Try to arrange a residents' meeting. Find out exactly what their concerns are - and then contact police and LA highways agencies with view of getting slow down signs and so on .. to see if this will impact.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

You have stated the area is 'residential', however with it being a rural area that could well mean that the road resides within a national speed limit. Is the road actually a 30mph, or is the road within a national?

Naturally there would be emphasis on driving within the conditions however coming from a rural area myself, I cannot understand how one can devolve responsibility away from the parents and indeed children, compared say, to the driver. There has to be some give and take and taking action because 'we are paid and in many ways directed by the local community' does not mean that the local community are absolved from responsibility on their part. In other words, you do not have to take action for actions sake.

Once again, it would be helpful if you can provide the actual speed limit for this stretch of road.

Education for pedestrians for starters....you know, the Green Cross Code, etc...


Really???

I always find myself doing 35 in a 30 when the conditions permit, but in all honesty I would have to say that 60 in a residential 30 is taking the piss no matter what the conditions are....nick them!

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

why not stick a panda half way along the stretch of road, you will be seen to be doing something, the boy racers will not know what you are doing, best of both worlds

Gixxer - Thank you!


Would we have words over 10% + 2? I think we would take conditions into account - but probably simply remind you of COAST and hope you keep it safe.

But 60 mph in a 30/40 mph residential .. we will have hard words to say to that driver. I will also say that we would seek to remain polite and courteous .. but will make it plain that we are not amused by OTT speeding but will try to correct the driver's attitude and educate with helpful hints whether we issue verbal fixed penalty, intend to prosecute in the courts - whatever. Punishment is punishment .. but we would also hope that folk learn and we only punish with fines here as a last resort option. If three points etc are awarded here .. then the driver deserved them. We do try to educate though to save further grief and misery. Education and learning from mistakes is essential to developing skills and future good practice after all.

People remind me that our policing is by tacit consent and we are not a police state dictatorship either.

My Force endeavours to protect and serve our public - without threat to them and our policing here is based on mutual respect and friendly co-operation. As it should be and I think all 43 Forces operate on this basis in reality.

We are committed top Plastics from ON HIGH! We deploy them usefully and want them to have maximum job satisfaction. Plastics work if deployed carefully and thoughtfully - and I cannot speak for all.. I can only say our patch will never waste cash and human resources - and the latter we respect more than cash

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

No need to thank me IG, it's common sense.


And that is exactly the sort of policing we need to get back to.
If the powers that be really cared about road safety, then they would put more marked patrols on the roads and let a human being make a decision as to whether someone was dangerous or not.

As you have probably gathered from some of my postings here, I am not a great lover of the old bill by any stretch of the imagination. However I believe our roads would become a lot safer if we ditched the cameras and got back to the way we were 20 years ago when you couldn't even so much as drive around the block without encountering a patrol car.

A camera is NEVER going to catch the drunks, the disquals, the uninsured, etc.......only a REAL (or even a plastic) copper can do that.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

The question then becomes: how can these nutters be targeted without unfairly penalising the great majority who are responsible?

Absolutely. Speed camera type methods don't work at all as far as I can tell, being more likely to move the nutters to another location rather than actually catch them.

North Yorkshire did have a covert speed camera van specifically set up to catch nutty bikers at huge speeds. Maybe, just maybe, that was an OK approach.

The only method for dealing with nutters is real police patrols that might pop up anywhere. I'm not sure about charge or punishment. If I was Transport Minister, I'd seriously investigate the possibility of re-education, but with the nutters' risk thermostats set wrong in the first place that'd be hard. Somehow the re-education programme would have to make the risk real. Pehaps you could develop a driving 'assult course' where they could discover for themselves that they weren't allowing time to deal with hazards?

But the real answer is mainly sufficient education in the first place. A proper understanding of risk and responsibility on the roads would surely lead to fewer nutters.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I've ben reviewing this thread, and there are two aspects to this post I'm quoting that worry me:



These problems essentialy arise due to ignorance. Parents and drivers both may be ignorant of the risks or they may be ignorant of their responsibilities.

Reading between the line of the part I've quoted seems to indicate that you see your duty as 'giving the community what they want'. But if what they want is founded on ignorance, then you would be doing them a great disservice. Essentially pandering to the whims of the ignorant is forever doomed to fail.



And here we're not working with a proper definition of 'the problem'. What is 'the problem' exactly? Risk to children? The first step in any solution requires that 'the problem' is correctly and adequately defined.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely! But the perennial question is "How the hell do you achieve that!?"

'Nutters' don't recognise the need to be responsible nor do they acknowledge the real risk they place themselves, and others, in. The big hurdle is to make them WANT to know and improve - after that, the education bit is easy.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I had a phone call, must be 6 months ago now or a bit more, from an 18 year old driver who had lost control and crashed. No one was injured this time. He said to me something like: "Why didn't anyone tell me that when I drove I was responsible for the very survival of my friends in the car with me?"

It was a turning point in my thinking about this problem. The nature and the extent of risk and responsibility may be completely obvious to us, but it isn't to many younger people and we're (society) doing precisely nothing to explain it to them. Instead we're giving them 'don't speed' platitudes - which they see right through - and end up thinking that road safety is a boring load of old rubbish.

Edited to add...

So I think that some sensible, intelligent, genuine and above all believable road safety education in schools could make a very real difference.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That would be a very good start, but would it prevent Nutters?

And I supose that rests on our definition of a Nutter. It sounds like your phone call was from a young lad who had a 'Wake-up' call which he was sensible enough to recognise, and he then wanted help. Was he a Nutter? Doesn't sound like it to me.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished