Safe Speed Forums

Can someone explain why when road deaths are increased the first factor to be blamed is "Speed" and not the obvious thing of "Driver Error" speed is only a factor in the equation accidents happen at low speeds as well as high speeds but as we all know our friends at "Brake" advocate everyone driving at 20 mph so as to ensure taht there is a minimal risk of injury!

When an accident happens fatal or otherwise the first thing to be blamed is speed and not anything else such as road furniture or other vehicles or badly designed road / situated obstructions i.e. islands etc.

Sudden braking caused by "Speed Camera" locations are a significant factor in rear end collisions due to the fact that drivers when they see a camera suddenly have a total loss of concentration due to seeing the "Yellow" camera suddenly come in to view and the mind goes blank then the brakes go on and to exacerbate the matter even further they spend precious moments looking in the rear mirror to see if they have been flashed rather than watching the road ahead

Obviously if the fatality figures had "Gone Down" then our erestwhile friends @ DfT would have been tumpeting all the time about "Cameras" doing an excellent job but when the figures go up lo & behold the answer is more cameras and not more (BiB,s) on patrol
Ad Infinitum

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

At its simplest...

They think that 'drivers can't be changed' so the only thing they can do to improve safety is to slow them down.

Unfortunately they are proving that drivers can be changed for the worse with their oversimplified policies.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

In two sentences you just answered all the questions about speed cameras as because the powers that be, can,t for whatever reasons get the motorist to see their point about speeding, they then take the view that the only answer is to install more cameras which if taken in true context only achieve a reduction in speed for a short distance on the designated road i.e. possibly 50 or 75 yards or so.

This proves beyond all doubt that cameras are just for raising revenue for cash strapped councils and bear no resemblance to saving lives and reducing injury related accidents.

Ad infinitum

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

i have just pointed out some hard facts regarding the issue of speed being blamed for accidents and the fact that speed is a contributary factor and its not impossible to say that it is the sole cause of an accident. in that case, it was regarding knocking someone down but the fact that the pedestrian was on the road is also a contributary factor. if they werent there, it wouldnt have happened. basic physics

the site is down so i cant go back to see what i said however, i did come up with an interesting question which has so far gone unasked.

who is at fault in this scenario
empty motorway, a car is travelling at 90MPH and hits a pedestrian.

bearing in mind the car is speeding but the pedestrian shouldnt be there

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

That is a very good quetion so you might find an answer with "stephen" the BiB he should be able to clarify the legal aspect of the matter but I would think that as the speed was in excess of the "legal limit" I would say that the car driver could very likely be prosecuted for possibly dangerous driving even though the pedestrian shouldn,t have been there
He/ she was exceeding the limit bearing in mind

Ad Infinitum

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

The motorway scenario is a rare (thankfully) example, but this does not correctly parallel other types of road, roads where you can expect to see pedestrians (where pedestrian collisions are far more common - obviously). So what about urban roads where a driver exceeding the speed limit collides with a pedestrian - who is at fault here and why?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

while it is rare Smeggy, the focus i was looking at is that although the driver was committing the deadliest sin on the governments list, the pedestrian is also committing an illegal act by being on the motorway in the first place.

btw, this scenario is 100% fictional. it is purely a hypothetical question inspired by a slightly different topic which had nothing to do with me. the bit about an accident caused by speeding put the bee in my bonnet

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

I can identify an occasion some while ago when, going down to see my parents in hospital many years ago, in the dark, on the M20, I was... let's say not hanging around. I saw a van on the shoulder about 20 seconds in front of me - no other vehicle in front or behind anywhere. Instinctively I moved from N/S to fast lane. As I did so, a bloke appeared from in front of the white van clutching a fairly large temporary roadsign. He likely misjudged my speed and started to trot across the carriageway. I by now had scrubbed off a lot of speed and was heading back to the inside lane, when the wind caught his sign and blew him - with sign - back inward. I double-elked and passed him - on the outside - at around 30 mph. Had I not realised I was going to miss him by a good six feet I'd have scrubbed off more speed still. Could I have stopped? I think so - but glad I never had to put it to the test. It shook me up I can tell you.

Mad Doc did report up the story he found in the Bolton press about a kid who died on the M61 - playing chicken. She was hit by two cars. Neither driver was prosecuted - but I gather from the Mad Doc's sisters
that no one has fixed the fence to prevent any other kid from entering the motorway at that point.

In the other one.. police are still looking for witnesses to try to work out how and why a 17 year old (who was by all accounts a very nice young man) was walking on the M61 in the small hours of the morning. The driver has not been charged with anything. After all - he would not be expecting some one to walk in front of him.


In scanny's scenario.. we would have to prove the car was speeding. We could suspect so from any skid marks and we can even do a number of forensic tests to indicate when and if the brakes were hit. Would be very hard to determine the speed based on the injuries . - or even the standard of the driving prior to this collision .. hence appeal notices for witnesses to piece such a scene together along with a road closure to gather anything which could help piece the facts together for the inquest and the family. ... but we would probably have very little to prosecute the driver on given that the pedestrian was there illegally
and we not be able to prove his exact speed unless he told us or without some independent witness statement to testify approximately - and of course the driver is more than likely to say his speed was "more legal than actual


The prime causes are "lack of COAST principles". The speed will affect the outcome - but we seem to find that the stronger the COAST skills - the more a safe speed for the conditions is chosen .. and perhaps why we should tackle and focus on improving basic skills first on the basis that this also improves things on the excess speed front as well.

I am sure that if 32 million of us started cycling tomorrow . we would find that careless cycling en masse will not be the safe haven some think it will be either. Safety does depend on our abilty to employ common sense is rather stating the obvious

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I keep seeing the abbreviaion "coast" can you clarify what it stands for?

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Concentration
Observation
Anticipation/Attitude
Space=Time

Should be fairly self explanatory. But others here should be able to clarify if needed.

I saw a new one, to me, POWER. Can someone explain that please.

It is a pre-flight check.

Petrol
Oil
Water
Electrics
Rubber

I stand to be corrected though.

Mike.

Similar situation; Place the pedestrian on a railway track, driver still doing 90.....whos fault?

_________________
"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

Out of interest, how do you go on when the vehicle concerned has ABS - where there must be a mechanical/electrical failure if there are skid marks

Presumably the skid marks would just be 'stuttered'.

And faint - sometimes to the point of invisibility. The rubber just doesn't get so hot...

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Apologies for my ignorance as I haven't driven a car with ABS, and I'm not sure I'd ride a bike with ABS as I disagree with Honda's linked braking system on principle, but isn't it possible to skid even with ABS? I assume that the skidmarks would be shorter for the same power/weight of a non-ABS vehicle.

_________________
Prepare to be Judged

The skid mark is broken as the wheels momentarily lock up and the roll freely - all ABS does is 'pulse' the braking force.

I agree, I would never ride a bike with ABS - I know I can control a rear-wheel skid quite happily (thankfully I've never had the pleasure of a front wheel skid), but if the skid was affected by the pulsing of the brakes I don't think I could...

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

You can still skid with ABS if the wheel goes sideways, but the point of ABS is to prevent this happening, by keeping it rolling, and thus retaining directional control even under extreme braking.

I have ridden a bike with ABS, VFR VTEC, and intend to get it on my next bike, Blackbird XX It has helped in at least two circumstanced I recall. The linked brakes do take a little getting used to, and you'll have trouble getting it to do donuts if thats your thing, but all in all its a far from bad experience!

Thanks Sixy

I had a front wheel skid after I hit a deisel lake that had been deposited all the way across the road outside a petrol station at a traffic light controlled junction. Thankfully the lights were red and so I was already slowing down so when it went I was able to slam a foot down, heave and save it.

I wouldn't advise trying it but if you want to practice then find a gravel driveway.

_________________
Prepare to be Judged