Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Wed Nov 12, 2025 21:18

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 17:04 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 16:08
Posts: 33
Location: Hyde, UK
Nearly all the opinions I have seen on Safespeed have been very positive and those on speed cameras generally have been very negative, yet NSCL continue to claim widespread public support for speed cameras.

Does this public support really exist? Among my circle of acquaintances, nobody has a good word for speed cameras, and more recently the number of people having an opinion on the matter seems to be increasing as genuine information begins to surface (thanks to Safespeed and ABD).

So who does support speed cameras?

Regards
Jim Brooks


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 17:14 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Hi Jim,

I moved the topic from "Opinions about Safe Speed" to this general forum. It's a better fit here.

Public opinion is rather distorted presently, but not as distorted as the poll results published by the camera partnerships. More info on these Safe Speed pages:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/survey.html
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pactsssi.html
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/cameras.html

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 17:30 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
JimB wrote:
Nearly all the opinions I have seen on Safespeed have been very positive and those on speed cameras generally have been very negative, yet NSCL continue to claim widespread public support for speed cameras.

Does this public support really exist? Among my circle of acquaintances, nobody has a good word for speed cameras, and more recently the number of people having an opinion on the matter seems to be increasing as genuine information begins to surface (thanks to Safespeed and ABD).

So who does support speed cameras?

Regards
Jim Brooks


Ya mean - ya don't know! :lol:

Aunty Mary from Brake, and the weird one in Wales - the one and only Stasi - Dick Ed Brainstormfuhrer!

Not to mention our Tone B'Liar, David Begg (aka a plank!), Baroness Scotland, Ms Dunwoody (MP), all muesli munchers, Polly Parrot Toynbee (not very investigative and naive "investigative journalist" who has been taken in by other African fleece-scams which cost her dear by her own account,), Christa Ackroyd (numpty reporter of Sunday Express), most Grauniad readers, and a variety of other twazaks who do not drive, make asinine judgements on a skill they do not possess, believe all the spin doctoring they hear, believe or support the party line - because prat@arsing and other forms of bum-licking are the New Way/New Labour.

Apart from the above - everybody else (including the Tories :shock: ) sees the speed cameras for what they really are - method of tormenting the average motorist and trying to force him onto non-existent public transport, after first depriving him of £240 plus licence/extra insurance premiums for a while. Then the "torturers" re-instate licence so that he can pay extortionate wads of extra cash insuring his vehicle (as a 4x speedster of 1-5mph over a posted limit - he is a seriously dangerous driver!) and the fun can start again!

Does that answer your question, Jim! :wink:

Go forth and spread the word amongst you circle of pals!

We need all the support we can get!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:06 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 17:38
Posts: 35
Location: Brumstromnia land
add to that Cyclists, Pedestrians and anyone who doesn't drive ;-)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:16 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
paulcdb wrote:
add to that Cyclists, Pedestrians and anyone who doesn't drive ;-)


Isn't it worrying that everyone thinks they're a road safety expert? That's a big part of our problem, folks. If we could crack that, everything else would follow very easily. Understanding it is a good first step, hence this thread:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:49 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 13:13
Posts: 116
Mad Moggie , is right...

I would only under line one issue which was mentioned. The public perception issue.

The spin, firstly speed kills, is an excellent sound bite from the same stable that wanted to bury news on september the 11th. If we are all honest it makes lots and lots of sense, untill such time as you look into the back ground of the claim.

Therefore the public, find it easy to believe, My county has just done a 15,000 people survey and had the results they more or less wanted. although it went against them by ten percent over last year.
this is a huge survey no one else other than a fund rich council could hope to replicate. I know because I intended to do one at the same time as I didnt believe the answers.

there is no doubt at all, everywhere u go the talk is of speed cameras. Likewise as the tickets mount the low grumble we all hear will turn into a shout.

we must do our best to tell everyone what we know to be fact. This weeks facts for me, was out of 12,000 causation factors in essex accidents , JUST 800 were by excessive speed. !00,000 + otherwise law abiding rate payers are having to fork out a total of £ 6,200,000 , as the authorities try to prevent 70 fatal accidents , exactly the same number as ten years ago.
DAFT OR WHAT ???
rgds Bill


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 19:11 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 09:11
Posts: 3
Location: Warwick
SafeSpeed wrote:
paulcdb wrote:
add to that Cyclists, Pedestrians and anyone who doesn't drive ;-)


Isn't it worrying that everyone thinks they're a road safety expert? That's a big part of our problem, folks. If we could crack that, everything else would follow very easily. Understanding it is a good first step, hence this thread:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68

The wider problem is that now everyone can be an expert on anything. True "expertise" is downgraded to being an "anorak", and decisions are based on feelings instead of knowledge. Hence feel the "speed kills" "truth".


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 18:50 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:34
Posts: 10
I've been involved with these before. You have to be careful with what people are saying on this. Basically if you ask someone "Do you like speed cameras" then most people say no. However, they're getting around this by asking questions like "do you believe speed cameras save lives" or "do you believe the installation of a camera makes a stretch of road safer" - what you find is that the majority of people (75%+) say the believe these statements, hence the partnerships say they have public support.

However, the media interest in this subject - whether right or wrong - is seeing the numbers of people agreeing drop.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 00:58 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 23:16
Posts: 12
paulcdb wrote:
add to that Cyclists, Pedestrians and anyone who doesn't drive ;-)


Cyclists can drive too you know! I love cycling and I do 40,000miles a year in the car too!

On the speed camera thing though, it's just another case of the government listening to the minority groups and totally ingnoring the vast majority of strong public opinion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:09 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 13:13
Posts: 116
exactly: the questions are devious, veryhard to answer them othr than the way ""they " want them answered

this is an example, it contains what I beleive are the standard questions the government set for the surveys..Sometimes the local council can set a portion of their own questions ,

here is an example of the governments questions
http://www.safecam.org.uk/feedback/feedback.asp

rgds
bill


Kev said.


You have to be careful with what people are saying on this. Basically if you ask someone "Do you like speed cameras" then most people say no. However, they're getting around this by asking questions like "do you believe speed cameras save lives" or "do you believe the installation of a camera makes a stretch of road safer" - what you find is that the majority of people (75%+) say the believe these statements, hence the partnerships say they have public support


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:42 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:44
Posts: 4
Location: North Wales
The Scamera partnerships conduct these surveys on a regular basis, and Brunstrom claims that they show a "rock steady" 75% in favour.

What I would like to know is how many people are surveyed?

The reason that this interests me is that the North Wales Daily Post conducted a phone poll last year with the question "Do you think that our Chief Constable (Brunstrom) is doing a good job?" 3,000 people phoned in, 75% said NO!

Brunstrom claimed that 3,000 was not a large enough response to be representative.

So, how many people are surveyed; more or fewer than 3,000?

Cheers


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 13:27 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
The AA makes similar sorts of claims that 75% of AA members think they are best thing since sliced bread as well!

Well, Ma and Pa have been members since they started driving (both, ahem, bubbling past late 70s! :wink: )


I have been a member for (um - 28 years) and the wife for 20 years!

We are also in RAC - who have made similar claims in the past!

And so are the other drivers in this rather large family!


Not one member of this family has ever been asked for any opinion, good, bad or indifferent about speed cameras, adequacy of driver training, opinions on road safety, etc.

Suspect they only survey Brake members (cos we used to :shock: :shock: :shock: belong to Brake (and distanced opurselves at top speed over the scam issue and general silliness that was emerging in 2000/2001). That is the only time we were ever asked to take part in one of these polls - and you can guess what we voted for :wink:

In case you are wondering about the ex-Brake thing- my wife (posts on PH as WildCat) was nearly killed in freak accident when man had heart attack and ploughed into her stationary car (in traffic jam). This was 5 months after her eldest cousin was killed after articulated with defected brakes, tyres lost control and ploughed through central reservation, killing him outright! Would not deny that Aunty Mary's mob made great progress in that area of road safety, but now road safety has become a fleecing farce!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 13:03 
Offline
Banned
Banned

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:47
Posts: 2291
Basically, anyone who has had an accident due to bad driving, or nearly had an accident due to bad driving or has a relation who has had an accident due to bad driving, or has a relation who has nearly had an accident due to bad driving or has a close friend who has had an accident due to bad driving, or has a close friend who has nearly had an accident due to bad driving and anyone who works in a hospital casualty ward or has a friend or relation who works in a hospital casualty ward or anyone who lives near a busy road or has a friend or relation who lives near a busy road etc. is a likely candidate to be on-message with this speed camera thing. Given that thousands of accidents due to bad driving happen each year, this is a large catchment pool. I'm not saying that bad driving/speed camera/accident rates are co-related (although they might be), but the police _are_ saying that, and reports are coming out all the time that are being interpreted that way.

So yes, there is a lot of support for it.

_________________
I stole this .sig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 14:27 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 16:08
Posts: 33
Location: Hyde, UK
I suppose this means that the message:

THINK!

isn't getting through then!

The speed kills nonsense is very appealing at first sight as it appeals to intuition rather well. It is necessary to think quite far beyond that to reveal the awful truth, that it is bad driving (inattention etc) that kills, not just speed. The awful thing is that bad driving is becoming more common, as most manifestations of it are ignored, and as far as speed cameras have any contribution, they are adding to bad driving behaviour.

Regards
Jim Brooks


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 16:44 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
Don't forget that it helps to get the answer you're looking for if you ask the questions the right way. If I was doing a survey on speed enforcement and I wanted to be sure it'd broadly support scameras I might go about it like this:

How many children are in your family? This is simply to make people start thinking about their kids, or other young relatives. In itself it's irrelevant, but it's important that people they care strongly for are in their minds when they're considering later questions.

Do you believe child casualties are too high? Most normal people would consider one child fatality as one too many. The only people who're going to think that casualties aren't high enough will be regular starit jacket wearers. This question is asked simply to get the respondent to start agreeing with the questioner. It's actually about as relevant as asking if you prefer noodles or starvation.

Are you concerned about the level of serious injuries among children? Very similar to the previous question, and designed to provoke a second successive agreement on the part of the person being questioned.

Does the number of children currently being killed or injured by speeding motorists worry you? Now, there's no mention of what the number of children killed or injured by speeding actually is. Nor does the question ask the respondent to think about what this figure might be. We're simply trying to get another positive response here, and again one is one too many for most people so we're likely to get it. Whether the numbers involved are significant or not just doesn't enter into it. At the same time we're linking child casualties with speeding for the first time, having first got them to think of their own children (if any) and got them to agree with us twice before.

Do you feel that enforcement of speed limits can help reduce child casualties? Well, all the people who've just said yes to the previous question are not likely to change their minds at this point and say that enforcing limits is useless, so they're probably going to say yes again. Inconsistency won't make you look too bright, and nobody wants to seem stupid to a stranger.

Do you feel that police and/or safety cameras near schools, playgrounds etc would help enforce speed limits in areas where children are vulnerable? Again, fishing for a positive response. No one is likely to go past a school at flat chat with a police car about, so logically this is going to help enforce the limit. And now we're equating the presence of police with the presence of cameras. We're also trying to get emotions going by talking about children and vulnerability.

Do you believe that the risk to children is reduced by police use of safety cameras? Again, we're tying the police and the cameras together, and again we're hoping that people who answered yes to the previous question will do so again out of consistency. It helps that the question is almost the same as the last one, just worded differently. We're also keeping the emotions stirring by using the phrase 'risk to children'.

Do you feel that police use of safety cameras should continue? Having got tentative support for scameras in the last couple of questions we're looking for fairly unequivocal support with this one. By asking a series of questions that people are likely to say yes to, hopefully more people will say yes to the last one than would be the case if the survey consisted of this question alone.

No real information is given out as part of the questions, so we can rely on public misconceptions supplying the answers to a degree. Also, by using words like feel, believe, worry, concern, none of the questions are actually asking people to think - they're just asking for people's feelings. And I wouldn't bother publishing the whole survey either. The last question and the percentage of yes answers is what I'd put on the web FAQ, along with maybe the question that deals with being concerned about speeding and child casualties. Hey presto, public support for cameras.

Now, I'm not suggesting that this is actually done. The only time I get asked to do a survey tends to be when the phone rings and dinner's on the table, so I usually tell them to get lost without even waiting to find out if the survey is about speeding or my favourite yoghurt. I've no idea what sort of questions are really asked in camera support surveys. But if I was doing it I'd be tempted to think very hard about what sort of questions will lead to the result I want. Then again, I am a sneaky *******. :twisted:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 20:57 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 00:08
Posts: 748
Location: Grimsby
I think with the latest expose in the press this week about the 1000 more speed camera's in non dangerous area's, the popularity of scamera's is going to plummet.

_________________
Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 23:32 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
basingwerk wrote:
Basically, anyone who has had an accident due to bad driving, or nearly had an accident due to bad driving or has a relation who has had an accident due to bad driving, or has a relation who has nearly had an accident due to bad driving or has a close friend who has had an accident due to bad driving, or has a close friend who has nearly had an accident due to bad driving and anyone who works in a hospital casualty ward or has a friend or relation who works in a hospital casualty ward or anyone who lives near a busy road or has a friend or relation who lives near a busy road etc. is a likely candidate to be on-message with this speed camera thing. Given that thousands of accidents due to bad driving happen each year, this is a large catchment pool. I'm not saying that bad driving/speed camera/accident rates are co-related (although they might be), but the police _are_ saying that, and reports are coming out all the time that are being interpreted that way.

So yes, there is a lot of support for it.



This is quite true - and I can at least confirm from personal experience :wink:

No secret that the wife had major accident exactly 14 years ago this month. Not her fault - (see my posts here - and she posted a little of the experience on PH as "relevant to the discussion". We also lost another relative few months prior to that when artic. with dodgy everything ploughed through central reservation and hit him head on.

We have also mentioned that (horrors! :shock:) we belonged to Aunty Mary's mob, and that we distanced ourselves over rather silly attitude towards speed and speed cams.

That was not only reason: they contacted us as they wanted to use our personal tragedy as part of their "Speed Kills" campaign. Except that a speeding driver did not kill that cousin - a very careless, criminally negligent keeper of the vehicle and equally negligent driver (as he did not do the necessary checks before driving it) did! My wife may have been hit by vehicle driving at excess speed -( 80mph on approach to stationary traffic), driver was taken ill at the wheel.

Goes without saying that we distanced ourselves completely in complete outrage and made it very plain on which side of fence we are :wink: :wink: .

One of wife's cousins is A&E in London, and I have lots of colleagues - can confirm they do get polled by this mob. But again, as Gatsobait points out, we have skewed questions to elicit correct response - and many of these chaps are so busy - they do not get time to take a leak. So there is often a nil response from the NHS coalface brigades. (Though the prat@rsing managers with little brain are probably the ones giving the wrong replies! :roll: )

As said before - AA claims 75% of members support scams - as member - have never been asked!

Both "Daily Express" and "Daily Mail" (Tuesday) reported results to telpehone poll of theire readers. Both papers returned 85% supporting the SCRAPPING of all cameras! :lol:

Add results from the "StUN", "Telegraph", "Mirror", "People", "News of World" and Sunday "Express/Mail", and the overall result is the same:

Over 85% of us believe that safety cameras compromise road safety and serve no purpose other than to raise money by unfair means!"

And these people also agree that the accidents are occurring because there are:

LESS qualified trafpol
MORE drunk/doped drivers
MORE uninsured etc who will be more inclined to take silly risks
MORE joyriders
MORE Starksy & Hutch cops amongst the few we have (apart from "In Gear "- hasten to add - family harmony :lol: :lol: !)
MORE driver inattention for variety of reasons - most of which are discussed at great length on this site.

But we have said it all before - and will have to continue repeating ourselves until the message gets across to these numbskulls in the so-called Road Safety Pratnerships! :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 18:06 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 02:07
Posts: 242
A policeman once told me they have nobody on traffic duty at night because they need police around to tackle "real" crime, generally fights at nightclubs and drugs etc, plus accidents. Instead they rely on cameras.

But drunk-drivers they will still pull over.

My own feeling is that police can do both. They can:

- patrol the streets, preferably mostly on motorcycles with a few available in cars.
- easily visible, thus the aim being preventing crime.
- be aware of both unsociable behaviour (fights, burglaries etc.) and dangerous driving.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 19:31 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 20:56
Posts: 59
Location: Alnwick, Northumberland
Mad Moggie made some very good points regarding cameras being unable to catch drink/ doped drivers, joyriders and uninsured drivers.

I've just heard from a source within the Traffic Police in my native Northumberland that from December 2004, the Motor Patrol section will be effectively abolished and absorbed into area command. The numbers of Traffic Officers will be cut from 50 down to 30 and all speed enforcement will be the responsibility of the scamera partnership.

Just how the Chief Constable thinks this is going to make our roads safer is a mystery to me. Is speeding the only offence worth enforcing these days?

Alan


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:38 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 18:41
Posts: 893
Littlegoozle wrote:
Just how the Chief Constable thinks this is going to make our roads safer is a mystery to me. Is speeding the only offence worth enforcing these days?

IMO, speeding is an offence not worth enforcing. However, because it's so easy to identify transgressors and possible to enforce in a completely objective way, the authorities have grasped it like the Holy Grail.

Speeding is redundant for road safety purposes. Clobbering motorists for speeding that is not dangerous is (IMO) persecution and exploitation. Every time that speeding is dangerous, the motorist must be guilty of either careless or dangerous driving and the authorities have something that is actually road-safety related with which to bring the offender to task.

That said, assement of driving as careless or dangerous is subjective and so difficult to prove. Even though the speed that a motorist travels relative to some arbitrary datum has little value for road safety, authorities use it from expediency. Where a motorist has driven dangerously in the opinion of an arresting officer, it makes sense to use speeding because it is the easiest way of bringing punishment to bear on the offender. This is similar to how Al Capone was brought to heel for tax evasion because it was nearly impossible to get him for the real crimes he committed. The problem we now have is that authorities have lost sight of the real goal (curbing of dangerous driving) and have concentrated illogically on something once used in expediency to the exclusion of that goal.

IOW, they're too busy to knobbling aligators to remember that they're supposed to be draining the swamp :roll:

_________________
Will


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.059s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]