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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 19:35 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 658091.ece

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'Rewards' for drivers who back road prices
Ben Webster

Motorists will be offered incentives to take part in road-pricing experiments, under government plans to rescue its policy of reducing congestion by charging vehicles by the mile.

Rather than forcing drivers to install a black box, to track their cars’ movements, ministers hope to encourage volunteers by making the system financially attractive.

The Government was taken by surprise by the strength of feeling against road pricing in the petition opposing the idea on the Downing Street website. It attracted 1.8 million signatures, compared with 5,000 for a petition supporting road pricing.

The Department for Transport is developing an approach where drivers will be offered a choice: carry on paying motoring taxes or switch to a road-pricing meter in the car that could save money.

Drivers could be offered a discount on fuel duty in return for agreeing to pay a distance-based charge, which would vary according to the level of congestion. DfT officials are studying an American trial in Oregon in which drivers who agree to pay a mileage charge have duty deducted from fuel bills.

The department hopes to test the voluntary approach in regional pilot schemes due to be announced this year. Manchester, Birmingham and Cambridge are being considered for the experiments.

The hope is that positive reports from volunteers will help to silence suspicions about the concept, including concerns that the black box will be used to spy on drivers’ movements and to raise the overall amount paid in motoring taxes.

Ministers have promised repeatedly that neither of these things will happen but the size of the petition suggests that many drivers do not believe them.

Under the new approach, drivers would be encouraged to see the black box as a useful tool, not an intrusive tracking device. The box, which would use satellite positioning and a digital map to record the vehicle’s movements, would act like a taxi meter. Drivers would be able to see the true cost of their journey mounting up as they sat behind the wheel and might decide to travel at a cheaper time, by a cheaper route or even on public transport. At present, motoring taxes are almost invisible to drivers because road tax is paid annually and fuel tax is collected automatically at the filling station.

The RAC Foundation supports the voluntary approach but believes that the Government should offer participants a whole package of benefits. It has developed a concept called “UK Drive Time”, which would involve installing a black box capable not just of calculating the distance charge but also of giving advice to the driver about congestion and offering faster alternative routes.

The system could also allow the driver to pay less for insurance. Norwich Union already offers a “pay-as-you-drive” policy under which drivers pay less if they avoid driving late at night and in the morning peak, when most crashes occur.

Edmund King, the foundation’s director, said: “It would be political suicide to force road pricing on drivers. They need to be tempted to opt in.” David Begg, the Government’s former transport adviser, said that ministers should learn from the introduction of the Oyster travel card in London. “No one was forced to get an Oyster card but the incentives were gradually increased and now more than ten million people have one,” he said.

An American road pricing experiment in Seattle found that almost 80 per cent of volunteers made fewer car journeys on congested roads when offered a financial reward.

Umm, surely only those who would benefit from the scheme would volunteer anyway, making it a rather flawed experiment.

And how do they stop people siphoning the cheaper fuel?

It is also absurd to suggest current motoring taxes are invisible as the whacking bill when you fill up your car, about 70% of which is tax, is a bit bleeding obvious.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 19:43 
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This is just a pathetic act of desperation from this government, trying to hide the fact that it knows it'll never win the argument for compulsory road pricing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 20:57 
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PeterE wrote:
And how do they stop people siphoning the cheaper fuel?


Whats to stop someone buying a cheap motor at auction and volunteering it for the black box. I'm betting it won't cost much to drive it to and from their local supermarket at off-peak times, to fill it with tax free petrol, before returning home and transferring the fuel to their non-black-box car for everyday journeys.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 23:15 
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Why a black box - we are told other countries pay tolls... but they dont use black boxes, just tried and tested
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 00:11 
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RobinXe wrote:
Whats to stop someone...

perhaps having to explain why their black-box car only gets .1mpg?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 00:21 
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johnsher wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
Whats to stop someone...

perhaps having to explain why their black-box car only gets .1mpg?


- computer error
- someone steals my petrol
- must be a fuel leak I suppose
- or - best of all - MYOB!

Really - I absolutely do not want to live in a land where some official thinks it worth his while to calculate my fuel consumption.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 00:29 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Really - I absolutely do not want to live in a land where some official thinks it worth his while to calculate my fuel consumption.

they won't need to. The black box tells them mileage and your special tax discount card which gets swiped when you purchase petrol tells them how many litres you bought.


yes, big presumption that UK inc can make a computer system work.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 00:48 
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johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Really - I absolutely do not want to live in a land where some official thinks it worth his while to calculate my fuel consumption.

they won't need to. The black box tells them mileage and your special tax discount card which gets swiped when you purchase petrol tells them how many litres you bought.


Yeah. I phrased that badly. Make it:

Really - I absolutely do not want to live in a land where some official thinks it worth his while to consider my actual fuel consumption.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 07:04 
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black box petrol could have dye added at the pump!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 09:17 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Really - I absolutely do not want to live in a land where some official thinks it worth his while to consider my actual fuel consumption.

but it gets worse. In our new big brother world your official wouldn't even need to consider it. When you register for your black box, your make and model of car is noted. If your mpg, based on the type of driving your box is logging, is over an arbitrary limit then a FPN is automatically sent to you. (sound familiar??)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:02 
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Why are they selling this as an incentive?

I thought road pricing was to replace fuel duty.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:29 
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civil engineer wrote:
Why are they selling this as an incentive?


Because they are signed up to it and we're not buying? Desperation tactics...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:50 
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desperation measure, nothing more.

A poor atempt to try and get the people who have decided to not vote Labour in the forth coming local elections, to change their minds, say in Greater Manchester.

only fool would belive to to be a good idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:51 
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civil engineer wrote:
Why are they selling this as an incentive?

I thought road pricing was to replace fuel duty.


No, they want keep fuel duty and taxs discs, this will be another tax, not a replacement.

the money back thing is a very very very very temp thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 18:00 
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I would assume that any petrol duty discount would be a rebate based on actual miles traveled against the typical mpg for that vehicle. It is therefore likely that only vehicles with an "official" mpg figure (ie. post-2001 at the oldest) would be included, and if you get less mpg then tough!

I am overall against the scheme, however there are so many ways a scheme could be implemented it is difficult to say just how "bad" it could become.

For example this article states that it could be used to reduce insurance premiums, but by definition this means the insurer would be given some level of access. If it merely consisted of a general overview of what times and places a car was used it would be useful. If they were sent batches of full route data (including speed) it would not be welcomed by me!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 18:15 
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g_attrill wrote:
I would assume that any petrol duty discount would be a rebate based on actual miles traveled against the typical mpg for that vehicle. It is therefore likely that only vehicles with an "official" mpg figure (ie. post-2001 at the oldest) would be included, and if you get less mpg then tough!


The typical mpg figures for most cars seem very optimistic :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 18:23 
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I sometimes think that I am the stupid one because I tend to see what I think are simple solutions when everyone else sees lots of complexity.

From what I can gather HMG proposes, VED(variable according to co2 emissions, Fuel duty, congestion charging, some sort of rebate system if you sign up to congestion charging....and there's no doubt something i've missed. All this will require technology, enforcement etc etc.

Now I've come up with one hell of a pay as you drive system....it's called fuel duty. The more you drive the more you pay, less efficient your engine the more you pay, the more congested the road, the the more you you pay. zero enforcement, zero evasion next to no 'system costs'.

Now where's the catch?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 18:36 
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civil engineer wrote:
Now where's the catch?

if the tree hugging pinkos succeed in forcing us all to drive around in revas there will be a distinct lack of income for the treasury.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 18:41 
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Silly me!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 21:49 
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civil engineer wrote:
Now where's the catch?


They won't be able to track your every move (which is the real objective and not collecting road taxation). As you point out, the revenue could be raised by fuel duty.

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