Safe Speed Forums

Opps Just realised.... shall blame the amber nectar I have in front of me...

Ahem ... shall go and edit it.....

Wicked single malt though ... Mad Lad gave it to me for Christmas. Apparently .. Wildy bought him an African goat called Edward and an orphaned African kitten ... and wore him out on Christmas night! . He bought her diamond ear-rings, a remote control plod car and a toy talivan! Poor lad!

Maybe this is a silly observation, but don't the rules of the road and Highway Code apply to ALL road users, speed limits included?????

Told you it was good strong stuff

I am warming to the African goat - and the orphaned kitted has passing resemblance. I have a photo and a video of them in Africa. So long as I do not have to find dosh for yet more university fees later on - shall be happy! She also gave me a second hand copy of the HC - her old one!

Forgot to welcome Fixed wheel nut, Peyote and Neil.

I live in Cumbria and ride a top of range DiamondBack and the mountain bike is a Kona Stinky Dee-Lux. (Great name ) Krissi rides a Scott Genius MC30 - as does my wife - her sister, Vrenchen. They both ride motorbikes as well Something which has never really appealed to me somehow.

Yes .. do ride it about a lot .. but never in Ambleside (shudder) and not as much as Krissi. She has a work out on hers - about 15 miles or so each weekend. I manage that about once a fortnight

I also like driving my cars as fast as within reason as well!

But know the problems from both sides as cyclist and motorist....look forward to hearing your views. I only get a bit cross over the S-word - as we do not need that. But different viewpoint ... always very welcome. Besides .. we want to convince you that speed cams are not really taking us in the right direction road-safetywise

Cheers Mad Moggie, I ride a custom 'Ron Cooper' fixedwheel Audax bike
see here

http://fixedgeargallery.com/2004/g/airey.jpg

I usually do around 5000-6000 miles a year commuting, club runs and Audax rides. yeah it has a speedo as does every one I know with a bike.

Unfortuneatley I see speed cameras as a neccessary evil, I am no angel but drive according to conditions around me as most of you on here propbably do, however there are an evergrowing number of incompetent drivers who have no regard for speed limits or the safety of other road users and need slowing down somehow, I remember hearing a statement on a TV proggramme about dangerous roads where a man described his accident stating{ it was not his fault he hit the cars in front as it was raining so heavily} this guy honestly could not see it was his fault that he had not slowed down to allow for the increased stopping distance and poorer visibility caused by the weather.

Personally I would like to see more officers patrolling to nick law breakers,"cars and bikes alike"
and rather than lower speed limits increase the fines for the laws we already have for careless and dangerous driving and manslaughter with a car, at present many drivers have little respect for the law as the consequences are not that high, so many are let off with paltry fines, its like walking a plank three inches off the floor you don't really care if you fall off, put it 6 foot off the floor ie higher fines, and people might take a bit more care, once people learn that going just that bit slower to take care around schools, cyclists etc that it hardly adds any time too a journey, after all it is usually the next car you come to that halts your progress more than slowing to overtake a cyclist. after all the reason I took up cycling was because it is quicker than driving to work

Just to add I am not against speed per-se, I drive at work road testing cars, enjoy a bit of Go-Karting now and then and in my past spent three years "in my spare time"as pit crew for Group saloon team including three stints at the Willhire 24 hour race at Snetterton,
Cheers
Steve

No. I don't think. It seems that cyclists pose a greater risk to pedestrians than light vans.



from:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pedrisk.html (full official references given.)

Everyone has to share responsibility reasonably equally for road safety.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Of course, before we took that step we would want to know with reasonable confidence that speeding cycles were a risk to safety. I expect the truth is that careless and reckless cycling is a small but significant risk to safety, but "speeding" (however defined) will turn out to be entirely insignificant.



Absolutely, although the failure that leads to the crash won't have much to do with speed. It would have plenty to do with observation, anticipation and planning failures by the rider, and probably careless behaviour by the pedestrian.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Look at the time of that post , Paul do you go to sleep
Not to sure I totally agree with you i.e. high speed cycle collision. If someone steps out in front of me at these speeds, there is often very little I can do.
Swerving is deadly as you don't have time to look behind you, and moving your bars at that speed will send you all over the place I have had this happen, a group of Mountain walkers walking down the A470 between Storey Arms and Brecon, and one of them just steps into the road. I was doing about 38mph at the time, and had no time to do anything. I missed him by about an inch, and sent a few words of advice in his direction as I carried on
Bikes dont handle like cars

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

Not a lot. Think of me as the Duracell Bunny.



Then it's up to you to slow down in proximity to such hazards. It doesn't sound as if you set an appropriate speed...

What Police driver training have you done?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

When your data states 'All Roads Pedestrian Fatality Risk', do you know if this is exclusively 'roads' or includes shared pedestrian/cycle lanes (that do not form part of the highway)?

It must be close to "all public spaces". It certainly includes pedestrians killed on pavements.

If you follow the link to the DfT web site there is a full definitions document available, associated with the 2003 data. I haven't got time right now. But let me know if you can't find it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Then it's up to you to slow down in proximity to such hazards. It doesn't sound as if you set an appropriate speed...

What Police driver training have you done?[/quote]

Hmm I was still 15mph under the limit, and don't expect pedestrians to step out in front of me on a busy road, we'll have to leave that issue there, because we are unlikely to agree on it. Both of our arguments have merit, and there is truth in each

I've done a 1 week assesment course, and a 3 week advanced course. I am a very good driver (modesty is for the unsure). I personally think all drivers should have skid pan lessons, because some of the theories I've heard of how to get out of a slide are beyond belief
It is my opinion, that the majority of drivers on our roads are only trained to pass a test, and with their own adaptations, will drive that way for life.

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

Sorry, Neil. If there was a pedestrian on the road, and it was busy - whether you were doing 15 or even 50 mph less than the spped limit, the fact that you could not make your charge avoid an accident (a cycle in this case, but could have been a horse, a motor bike or a steam-roller) means that for my mind your speed was inappropriate - and I believe very strongly that your police training should reinforce this. The absolute number of the black writing in the red circle is entirely incidental.

In fairness the pedestrian was on a grass verge, and without warning or looking just stepped into the road. THis is a major road, and this person showed scant regard for their own life. At what point will the pedestrian be to blame. In a car I would have moved towards the centre of the road, but on a bike on a road like that I have to take into consideration the motor vehicles on the road, especially the born again bikers splitting my eardrums as they pass at mach 2

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

Slight exaggeration..

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Speed camera policy Kills

Perhaps the pedestrian should have been given "wobble" room by the cyclist, much as motorists are invariably told to give cyclists wobble room? I'm not trying to be righteous here, Neil as I do not fully know the situation. However, as a driver I am always scanning road and pavement users way way ahead - as far as I dare without taking my eye off any closer balls. Any signs - and I mean *any* - dogs with tails up, folks opposite calling... smoke from tailpipe of parked car, unexplained shadows... and the foot covers the brake and escape routes are planned. On a bike, for all the reasons you've explained and more, this is vitally important.

As an aside, I remember a crowded Xmas shopping a few years ago. A couple were on a pedestrian crossing and a racing cyclist - head down - went across their bows. The gentleman was outraged and aimed a perfect kick to the back wheel. The bike carried on - but his wheel was buckled beyond recognition - going down the road like a misbowled wood.

I think this example illustrates exactly the problem with cycling/riding/driving etc... techniques. It all seems to boil down to risk assessment and travelling at a speed which minimises the risk, taking into account the abilities of the vehicle, the environment and others. Where is the line drawn? Neil could have been travelling at 5mph down an urban street and a ped may still have stepped out from between two cars without giving him the opportunity to stop, would he still be at fault for not travelling at a speed appropriate to the conditions?

I've had quite a few near misses from cycling on shared cycle lanes at around 10mph to the extent that I avoid them now. Should I have been cycling slower to give me more time to be aware of peds? I've never got a satisfactory answer of where fault lies in these kind of situations.

Neil - this is the problem we all have with pedestrians. We do not expect them to just step off in front of us. Sad fact of life is that they do do this.

Would like to see a fine - I will confess to getting fined as 14 year old for ignoring a red man when visiting the Swiss riff-raff!

I usually slow down if I see pedestrian who looks like he or she may just get a suicidal urge - but then - trained to expect the worst of people

Know what you mean about those bikers. They wreck our stats around here. Just cannot see the thrill of everything being a blur at the speeds they get up to either. But we are the guys who pick up the pieces and try to break the news gently to their families.

There is speeding and there is speeding and whilst I may use discretion over a defnitely safe blat pushing 90-ish mph - I am not too pleasant over silliness.

I have often wondered who takes prority wheb the pavement is divided into two by a cycle lane but neither is wide enough. Also where I live the cycle lane just comes to an end at a lamp post.. WTF are you supposed to do bunny-hop on to the road in front of on-comming traffic or swerve on to pedestrian lane breaking the law. Most people don't bother and just cycle on the road...another example of barking mad local authorities with a budget for painting white lines.

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Speed camera policy Kills

This is what Krissi was getting at in her exchange with Fumble Fingers when she first started on her epic adventure on your site. (I now have to buy her a drink - I bet she'd have been banned before she got to 200 posts! Think she came close at times though! )

If you remember they had a heated exchange over the HC - where she hit with Rule 19 and the pedestrian section. Lot of non-drivers do not read any one part of the booklet in any case .

Back to COAST ... another thing which Krissi should have pointed out - though suspect she was hoping an experienced cyclist would mention this one:

O and A. However you travel - as you approach line of parked cars - take a quick peek beneath and look for a ball or a foot. This could be a clue that child may be playing or someone is daft enough to ignore advice rule 14.

Not sure how the courts would view it regarding damages as this is up to judges. But probably - both would get my lecture on road safety in any case if I were called to scene of this - and any legal action on Plod part would depend on level of injuries and expected behaviour of a competent person. Acts we have mentioned would more than likely apply in case of a serious injury caused by this.




Rule 13 seems to be ignored by many pedestrians. They are advised to take extra care and be vigilant on such paths.

Rule 48 tells cyclists that they MUST keep to the side intended for cyclists on shared lane and take extra care when approaching peds - being prepared to slow and stop if necessary. Thus you would be at fault in case of accident if you took undue care on such a shared cycle path.

For drivers and cycilsts - we have rule 119. This clearly spells out the "MUST NOTS" to the drivers. Those wardens and certain CSOs, who have been authorised to do so - can fine for this. But only if CC has authorised this.

Hope this helps - Peyote!

Anything ypu can suggest to help teach pedestrians and other of the more numpty brigade - most welcome as we are a bit stumped ourselves!