Safe Speed Forums

Eh? Isn't it obvious? The vast bulk of the time is taken in forensic examination of the scene. But we don't need anything like that level of forensic examination to understand crash causes. We only need it to ensure conviction.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

All our PR activity is 'opportunistic'. It's all we have. We're not big enough to make the news opportunities.

I think you underestimate the difficulty of 'attaching to news stories', which is what Safe Speed PR does and how it works.

I have to guess which direction the story will take at an early stage and be there when the news is breaking.

It was possible - even likely - that closing the M25 on a bank holiday would have led to the largest traffic jam ever. If it had then we would have a second news story and that's the story that I wrote the PR for. If it had happened we would have done well with the PR. It didn't happen, but that's life.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Nope, not to me it isn't.



Again, how do you know that? How do you know that the police were not faced with a confusing scene that took time to unpick?

Furthermore, supposing those 6 people did died as the result of someones negligent actions, isn't it right and proper that such a person should face conviction?

I don't really know how I know. But let me put it like this. Understanding a crash is one thing. Being able to prove the crash in microscopic detail in a court of law is something completely different.

Full forensic examination is incredibly detailed and accounts for the extended road closures.



Yeah. But...

- In many many cases the deceased is responsible. (I have 55% in mind, but I'm not sure where it came from.)
- In many cases a trivial human error results in tragic consequences. (Possibly another 25%.)
- In some of the remaining cases the death will be a greater punishment than the law could impose anyway.
- And we must consider the elevated danger on the diversion routes. Would we accept a death elsewhere as an indirect consequence of trying to obtain the evidence to convict a dead person? Personally I think the risk is very considerable.

And the biggest 'but' is the need to prevent future crashes by learning from the crash in question. Presently as a society we're learning very little, and that's the real problem that bothers me most.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So you don't know, do you?



Good.



No, there are no BUTs about it, especially these...



Setting aside the 'finger in the wind'- ology, an investigation still has to determine whether the deceased was at fault. Or whether it was a minor human error. Or whether there was negligence on the part of another driver. Or negligence on the part of the vehicle owners. Or a serious malfunction of some equipment used. Or negligence on the part of whoever secured the load, or did the vehicle maintenace. Whatever, your selection of figures suggests that you believe the investigation not to be worthwhile because there is only a 20% chance of determining that a surviving party was negligent. Scratch another life/lives and get on with things.



Perhaps, but I do not believe that the law should simply turn its back on the deceased and his/her relatives because someone is now feeling remorse because they acted negligently and killed another person.



Bearing in mind your own oft-stated assertion that crashes are rare events, I believe you are overstating the chances of this happening in order to prove your point.



Of course, we should be doing both and learning the lessons to pass on to others and for adoption within the system itself.

Only I think the deceased driver may have made some error. He drove into the rear of the lorry after all und the lorry would have been lit on the rear und had brake lights if slowing for something.

Perhaps .. late at night .. end of long shift.. but this ist my speculating of course und perhaps we should wait for result of this inquest after all.

But emptyish motorway .. dry.. night drive. Unless the lorry cut in front of him.. we are perhaps short of options.

I think they kept the motorway closed for too long perhaps .. but I suppose 6 deaths.

However, I recall the incident with the minibus which killed talented 12 year olds und their teacher. She fell asleep .. they think .. und drove into a motorway maintenance vehicle on M40 . a vehicel with a big neon arrow showing its presence on had shoulder when she nod off und drove into it.

They did not close off the motorway per all the papers at the time in 1992 -ish Und around a dozen 12 year olds die in that incident.




But somehow I think this could have realistically been determined within hours at the scene und then expanded - with painstaking forensics on back at the lab..

One of family became aware of a death on High Street where they live. Sisters-in-law say the road was closed for 7 hours .. und consisted of one police car sitting at spot - long after the car involved und deceased had been removed from the scene.

Another came across a similar when driving home from her place of work in Altrincham. Person knocked down on twisty rural at lunch time. Road still closed off some 8 hours later. Her dog was at the kennels on that road. Kennel owner said car und body removed within first two hours.. und no reason to keep the road closed as "no one investigating anything"

So we do have some odd questions on that score as road users as in "WHY sit in cop car for several hours doing nothing?" if all forensics have been bagged und taken to lab .. along with all the photos und measurements.

Ist not being callous und I fully respect my cousin IG at all times - und appreciate his work... but when it become interpreted to plain daftness for sake of it as in these two cases .. I think a question must be asked. Perhaps Stephen know about the thing in Altrincham area Sister-in- law curious but say "that particualr road ist quite dangerous und full of very dangerously deep potholes too with loads of blind bends along it. "




I think good- bad - indifferent - the relatives will need to know how they died und even if they did something daft at time of death.. I think they still need to know to get some closure und grieve with serene dignity.

Man who hit me .. he died. His widow felt responsible as she did not stop him when he complained of not feeling well that morning. But subsequent forgiveness on our part .. und some understanding on each side .. helped get each party over a trauma.




But how often do I hear Sally Traffic mention accident und diversion.. und then more gridlock when accident happen on the other congested routes.. usually a minor prang.. but still more hold up



But our problem.. we do not pass on the learning curve of the mistake the driver might have made.

They just whack up a scamera if more than three died in the one accident. :rolleyes:

Und that ist not me or any of the Swiss relatives saying it .. but the chap who once thought them the "bees knees" on the R4 prog not so long ago

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Help the injured and remove the deceased.
Photograph, record, and plot the position of everything (vehicles, debris, skid marks etc)
Clear the vehicles and debris.

You can then take the vehicles and debris along with al the data collected back to the lab to investigate further.

Now, I'm not an expert, and I would not say I am qualified to tell the investigators how to do their job.

But, and this is my point, a team of people (and I am sure there were lots there) could do all that in a lot less than the 10-12 hours the road was closed for.

Mike.

(my emphasis)

But the collision appears to have occured in the N/S lane at a point where there was no hard shoulder. Although the press reports indicate that the lorry was moving, this may have been an initial error subsequently repeated by many! Perhaps the lorry was stationary - maybe without lights - and, if I remember correctly, on an unlit stretch of the motorway.

The opportunity for speculation is unlimited - as Wildy says, best wait for the inquest

If it had been just one death, would you be more certain they kept the road closed for too long? And that is a serious question by the way.

Perhaps it could. Or perhaps it is important to examine and catalogue material and evidence at the scene so as to ensure it is checked in its original state and it cannot later be claimed that it has become 'contaminated' by moving it?

Rigpig, can we take two steps back?

What do you see as the main differences between a murder and a car crash resulting in fatality?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Perhaps you should phrase the question using the term "manslaughter".

murder –noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

manslaughter –noun
1. Law. the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.
2. the killing of a human being by another; homicide.

To the family of the deceased, it may not make very much difference at all.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Well, in that vein I was going to post this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety ... ticle.html



But of course Ken Gonyea, a serving police office responsible for investigating accidents, doesn't know what he is talking about. In a country, a state, that is far ahead of the UK in the importance of the car, he still treats accidents like a homicide scene. He should take Paul's advice; take some pictures, brush the debris to the side of the road and let the cars through.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Ja... but does it take 12 hours? We also had sisters-in-law see one police car just sat for several hours after all debris had been cleared away... but the road was still closed. This happened on the High Street one busy Saturday according to Jazz und the other a fortnight ago on a country lane by my other sister-in-law when someone was knocked down on this lane. Surely once all vehicles have been removed .. und perhaps if damage to surface - then treat as normal roadworks with traffic sharing the other carriageway at a tempo limit whilst the emergency repair or diesel spills clean up carried out.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Only it ist not a homicide. I do not regard the person who killed Ferdl as a "murderer" nor do I regard the person who was taken ill und almost killed me as "attempted murder" either.

In Ferdl's case .. road was closed for around 5 hours. Mine was a bit different... I caused my "normal chaos" for the M6 that day if you like - as road was closed for 14 hours .. but this was a major "multiple" as he pushed my car into other cars at the time und I was not the only casualty ,.. but was one of two very serious at the time. The only K was the man who was taken ill in any case und he died on impact per inquest und court battle with his insurers who tried to argue he died before he hit anything und thus was deceased und "not insured" I am required by law to have insurance But I do not respect their integrity after that experience at all.

I think Ann Widdicombe has it spot on when she carried on in her piece about "changing the wording of the Highway Code".

It does not matter what words are used ... no one sets out to have a fatal in a car. ..the only exceptions being the hit/runs/drunks/drugged who know they have no right whatosever to be behind that wheel in any case. Und in the case of these unlicenced thugs who have no respect for themselves .. let alone police und the normally decent society .. the evidence ist there by virtue of what ist traceable und illegal in bodies - und in the absence of licence to drive und other legalities. You know in these cases that there ist no COAST und a lot of red misted OTT speeds involved.

But I am also sure that the USA police do not keep a road closed for longer than they need to in any case. Gridlock lead to other disaster on the surrounding roads as frayed tempered impatience und frustration can take over in a world where everything now has to be "five minutes ago" und not "now" or in "five minutes' time"

You take the evidence - und you should have just enough cops .. but not too many as too many can "contaminate" in any case .. und it should be methodical team work to get the initial in-situ evidence collated as quickly und as efficiently as possible.


As said .. two members of this family say that they saw a lone police car sitting on guard over the scene for several hours after the vehicles und victims were removed. There was thus no reason then to keep that road closed as all in-situ evidence had been photographed, bagged und labelled und all witness statements taken.

I would hope either lieber IG or Stephen could explain why that was so to us.

I think lieber IG did explain quite fairly why he will close a road. Ist not family pride speaking here. I respect him as a professional person in any case

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Hang on, how can you re-open a road without carrying out enough investigation to show that it was not the road itself to blame?

Handy .. this family were spitting with anger when Ferdl died as the result of a defective lorry swerving across a motorway.. out of control .. through central reserve to collive head on with him at just 20 mph.

We joined BRAKE when it start some time after this incident und my own incident as Mary was on a mission to improve garages und hauliers und promoting more COAST led basics before she got hi-jacked by speed cam "crotte"

But .. whilst the haulage operarator was negligent in that he did not service his fleet with zero duty of care to his employees who he expected to drive these dangerous vehicles - (und he got a whopping fine - crippling.. he went out of business) - und the driver really should have checked the vehicle before driving it und challenged his boss over it - we still did not view this as "manslaughter of our beloved cousin". The courts dealt as best they could und we campaigned und still do for those who hire people to drive to at least hire the best candidates, provide the right training und tools to do the job.

There are also a lot of EU regulations concerning type of vehicle, maintenance, duty of employer cares, manner of loading, driver hours und so on. I think IG or Stephen will know which Act they come under.


But a "regulation" ist not necessarily embodied in Law where a directive ist

IG has posted up something about "manslaughter" in past. I think you have to prove as in Switzerland und Austria und Germany - that in breach of duty of care to others - the driver was criminally negligent und caused a death as a result of this extremity

I think they have to prove to court that the driving felll way, way below that expected of a normally competent driver,
involved a definite risk of death und the driving standard had to be so bad that "criminally negligent" could only describe it.


I also think CPS would require proof that vehicle used as weapon or instrument of attack to consider such a serious charge too.



to prove this though .. und I do not think either driver would be guilty of this offence in this tragedy in any case.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

But they were not investigating. They were sat there for hours und then re-opened the road without any further investigation.


Sisters-in-law live in that small town in the first case und were shopping all afternoon. They could not get home because of this closure - or rather they could .. but it involve a long detour.

In the Altrincham case.. sister-in-law could not pick up dog from kennels or doggy home along that twisty lane. She was only able to do so the following day.

Folk at doggy home apparently said their staff could not drive home .. nor could a person who live at local farm access his home down there until they open the road. But they also say they walk these dogs down the lane to accident scene und nothing being investigated. Road was just sealed off for hours und then re-opened without any further "investigation".

I think they are right to ask some questions about that one.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Well - incident I had all those years ago


(twins were 7 month at time .. they nearly 18 now Mama of three "adults" How come we still paying out for them )



But they closed the road off then. Multiple vehicles involved as he pushed my car into another one - und a domino effect of sorts. But he did hit at a rather high speed und cars back then were a little heavier und did not have crumple zones either .. (Und even then .. I do wonder about crumple zones which admittedly protect a pedestrian (why they allegedly survive a 30 mph hit ) but not necessarily occupants of a car. I was truly shocked when the air bag went off und the sheer jolt within that car when that idiot drove into it a few month ago now.

Not really that much evidence from the scene really. He hit a car at high speed und kinetic force was such that he went through windscreen und rear screen of a queuing car at the time. Post mortem revealed stroke und heart failure... with evidence that he suffer from this condition for some time und was under medication for this .. but had not declared to DVLA

What took the time was the clear up of cars really Und clearing a severe rush hour back logged gridlock of cars more or less trapped in this rush hour jam - I suppose

But as said .. systematic evidence gathering und photos of scene und inspection of road surface seem to be taking longer than it used to - even with modern doo-dahs to help them. Und even when all cleared away.. there seems to be a reluctance to re-open asap thereafter.


But depend on nature of incident too.


I think sisters-in-law said the A56 was not closed for a long as they thought it would be .. after the Focus disintegrated. Certainly they said not as long as the incidents where pedestrians died. - which they were temporarily held up in.

But somehow it seem to me these days as if we treat all accidents in same suspicious vein as one which kill an icon of the day in Paris und which I should not perhaps even discuss in passing as there ist now an on-going inquest .. which seem to be compromised by media und conspiracy whispers und rumour

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!