Safe Speed Forums

an observation i have made frequently over the past few weeks is the female habit of driving with their arms at no more than a 30 degree angle. why do they sit so close to the wheel? i have tried leaning forward like this and it throws my judgement into all sorts of trouble. why do they do it?

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

like this?



or closer?

Closer than that Johnsher... I know the ones you meen scanny.. I can't understand it either

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Some of it may be down to ergonomics, to reach the pedals shorter people (women being shorter than men on average) have to sit closer to the steering wheel and have the seat height high to see over the wheel.

I know a rather large and short woman who drives in the position you describe and furthermore refuses to wear a seat belt because her size makes it uncomfortable. If she has an accident she is probably too well wedged in to go through the windscreen but I hate to think what an air bag deploy will do to her.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I'm 5'3 and I manage to acheive a sensible seating position. Seat forwards to reach the pedals and raised to see properly doesn't mean you have to have the seat back vertical...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Did seating position play a significant role when you chose your car?

5'10 - 11 depending on the time of day. In a saloon/hatch I tend to have the seat fairly far back for pedal reach and quite upright so that I can reach the steering wheel and keep my shoulders planted in the seat back. I also tend to have the seat low if possible so that I can see past the mirror without having to duck. In her car my wife, at 5'6, has the seat two clicks shorter, two clicks up (this moves the seat forwards too) , with slightly more rake and the steering wheel slightly further away than I do. The point is that though the positions are not perfect for either of us the car was a good compromise biased towards her even given that we both need to drive it. How many cars have that compromise biased towards the taller driver?

I wonder how many people actually have someone show them or help them find a good seating position?

As a biker, i.e. actually interested in driving/riding, Sixy I would imagine that you are more the exception than the rule.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Toltec. I have never had the luxury to be able to purchase a car based on something like seating position. When I bought the rover it was 5:30pm on Sunday night and I needed a car for Monday morning to go to work

When I drive Nos's car (Isuzu version of a Frontera Sport) it doesn't have seat height control so I just have to live with it.

I've also never had anyone show me an 'ideal' or 'correct' seating position, I just work on comfort and ability to use the controls safely. I fail to see how driving with your breasts on the steering wheel can be comfortable...it is also likely to be lethal in the event of airbag deployment.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

There is a design philosophy that a car should be built from the driver out, i.e. the seating position comes first. From the point of view of having a car tailored to fit me then no I also do not have that kind of budget, however from the premise that the best control of a car, and therefore enhanced primary safety, comes from a good driving position it is high on my list. You make an interesting point though that driving position may not rank very high on the decision to purchase and as you say sometimes you just have to live with it.

I did not mean to imply that everyone needed help to adjust their seating position for some a suggestion to think about it would do and many others will work it out for themselves.

So, this pressed against the wheel style is

Uncomfortable
Lacks control
Potentially dangerous in an accident

So why is it adopted?
Limited adjustment
Driver does not know any better
Needed for control

The last from steering weight and less upper body strength though I would say the cramped position would make it worse personally.

I have seen some blokes in pretty bad driving positions too it has to be said. One of the common ones I see a lot, I work at a college, is young lads slumped to the right hand side of the seat. I think this is some kind of style thing though.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I often wonder about this cramped driving position. I wonder if its some kind of attempt to get a better view of the front of the car for those lacking the spatial awareness to learn where it is? High seat base and as close to the windscreen as possible giving a better view of the front corners maybe?

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

You could have a point there, the smooth lines of modern cars do make it difficult to set reference points. They should only be necessary when parking though so why not just lean forward out of the seat?

If I am brave enough I might just ask a few offenders I know.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Ok, so I asked one - and survived.

She sat close to the wheel in her old car, Rover 214 iirc, so she could reach the pedals. Her new car, a Ka, lets her sit further away, though her 6'3" husband will only drive the car short distances as his legs do not fit.

A sample of one so not exactly a statistical event but score one for ergonomics.

Anyone else know someone they can ask?

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Another thought... maybe (and its a long shot) they pull the seat forwards to reach the pedals but don't realise the seat back is adjustable

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

My sample did say her sister drove with her seat well tilted back but she could not drive like that herself.

Takes me back to the idea that being more upright gives them a feeling of control, false as that might be.

Could just be that they are not very competent or confident drivers which comes back to a training/education issue. Cheaper than buying a car that fits them anyway.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

That driving position does always seem to be adopted by the less... able... drivers...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Do we have an answer for Scanny then?

He seems to have gone away.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Probably working - ain't seen him on Truckersworld for a day or two either.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I have a 5'0" wife so I'm interested here. When we first met, she had an old 850 Mini. She hadn't been driving long and was not especially good at keeping the car on course. Sitting in with her, it became apparent that she tended to look at the bit of road closest to the bonnet. That habit was soon cured but she still seemed to sit very close to the wheel. It didn't have adjustable backrests or power steering and she didn't need to sit that close to the wheel in order to reach the pedals but said that the steering was "lighter" when she sat closer to the wheel. I think that might have something to do with it. Driving with arms straight out it DOES seem to be harder to turn the wheel than if your arms are bent and you can "hug" the wheel and "put your shoulder" to it.

Her next car was a Metro - still no PAS but adjustable backrests. Still she drive with the backrest bolt upright and the seat unnecessarily (in my view) close to the wheel.

After that she got a Peugeot 405 and this transformed the way she drove. She took a lot of persuading because she was sure it would be "too big for her" (that seems to be a common complaint among women!) and now I'd have a real job persuading her into a small hatchback again! So maybe steering effort is something to do with it?

What I have noticed, and I hope I don't get an e-slap for it, is women holding the car on the clutch.

As an engineer I can almost feel the heat and see the swarf coming off the clutch plates. I was always telling my girlfriend when she used my car but it caused friction of a different sort so I had to bite my lip.

PS. If you have the K-Series engine Sixy, beware!:yikes:

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I do that.

Not for long periods, certainly, but quite frequently.

But the thing is that I have never worn out a clutch in any car I've ever owned. And I've owned quite a few for 60,000 miles or more. I purchased one car with the clutch already slipping. I've had a couple of precautionary new clutches when gearboxes have come out, and one where an oil seal failure caused the clutch to become, er, moist.

I reckon clutches are tougher than you're giving them credit for.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Good of ya to put yer hand up. I actually do it myself if I can see I'm only going to be a second or so but my honeybunchkins is happy to just sit there for a minute or two in a traffic jam before she'll resort to the brake instead. Something which I often observe others doing too.

I'm sure you're right that they're built stronger these days and maybe you only use the bare minimum revs to get the car going, but they do still go eventually unless treated with care. It's something which only shows itself after very high mileage but even so, it is a big and expensive job when it does eventually go.

Also, despite what anyone says, no-one puts a clutch in quite like the manufacturer. I speak from experience. I'd rather my clutch was fitted on a Japanese production line by robots than Mike the mechanic down the road.

It does depend on how often and how heavily it's done and you're probably quite a light clutch slipping sort of guy, as opposed to the higher rev person while edging back and forth in the traffic or at the lights.
I think it also depends on the type of car.

My old Mazda, and Mazda's in general I think, almost seem to have the 1st and reverse gears back to front. i.e. 1st gear barely gets you moving whereas reverse can practically get you up to the NSP or so it feels. If you're trying to reverse up a steep driveway it can be quite a challenge. I'm sure there's method in their madness and I wonder if the reason is that the lower that 1st gear is, the less strain there will be on the clutch. I don't know if that's their idea but on Mazda's it's really just a gear to get the car moving rather than get it up to any real speed.

Any car mechanics out there?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.