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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:07 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
All this does is prove beyond reasonable doubt that none of you are interested in road safety, just the fact that you are no longer able to drive at eye-watering speeds on public roads due to the proliferation of safety cameras.

Based on what various forum members have said, I'd much rather share the roads with them than what I currently have to!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:07 
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Sorry to go off topic but curiosity is rapidly getting the better of me here! I thought you'd "seen the light" Mpaton - a few months back you seemed quite keen to "cross the floor" - as it were, but now you're back and (seemingly) proclaiming the very worst of the "speed kills" creed from the rooftops. What brought about the change? Not a loaded question, just wondering what it was that put you off the "Safespeed" view of things.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:09 
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Don't forget, it could be Jec...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:32 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
All this does is prove beyond reasonable doubt that none of you are interested in road safety, just the fact that you are no longer able to drive at eye-watering speeds on public roads due to the proliferation of safety cameras.


Thats a bit of a sweeping statement! I have four cars all capable of over 100mph. I can't see the space for over 100mph where I live. and If I wanted to try I would need to chose the time and place well.

"Eye-watering speeds" might be 30mph in a car park or 10 mph in the ice and snow. 100mph on an empty duel carriage way is perfectly safe.

If 100+ is an "eye-watering speed" then why is it legal and safe for PC Mark Milton? Does his training and experiance realy give him that much more edge than other non police people?

100+ might be eye-watering speeds in a 1.3 nissan but if you tried it in a quality car eye-watering speeds might not occur untill 120+
in a clasic car like a ford anglia it happens at 70+ (if you can get there)

I personaly wouldn't mind a limiter at 100mph but I would like more power & acceleration than a 100mph car gives. my 110mph bus is a pain up hill.

Once you fit these limiters they will be wound down every year untill we all travel at 56 like the lorries. :cry:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:42 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
at eye-watering speeds

forgot to add earlier, if your eyes are watering then you've either forgotten to put up your window or put down your visor :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 15:30 
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PeterE wrote:
bombus wrote:
You've "developed" into a full-blown troll and for the first time I wish phpBB had a killfile option.

There is one in the next release - phpBB 3.0 - which is now available in beta format.

Thanks for the info...looking forward to using it in anger, when it's fully released and Paul finds a microsecond to implement an upgrade.
PeterE wrote:
However the problem is that you can still see there's a post by "spindrift" or whoever, and you can't help wondering what the **** has been saying now :roll:

A kind of morbid curiosity...you want to look away but you just can't. :roll:
BottyBurp wrote:
Don't forget, it could be Jec...

:yesyes:

Either that or a dual personality. There are two "people" involved somehow. I can't see any other explanation. People don't generally change their minds about this sort of thing.
BottyBurp wrote:
Based on what various forum members have said, I'd much rather share the roads with them than what I currently have to!

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. If every fellow driver had an "SS mindset" then driving would be a wonderfully fulfilling experience for me. Maybe that means I'm intolerant of road users who think differently, but it's so tempting to think "If those idiots would just get out of the middle lane things would be so much better" and so on.

I don't expect anyone to do anything difficult or anything that I don't do myself (I can confidently say that I never impede anyone). If people would just drive in what I considered a fairly reasonable way then I'd be more than happy. But too often they don't. :(


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 17:32 
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What would you consider to be "A fairly reasonable way?"


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 17:57 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
What would you consider to be "A fairly reasonable way?"

I've already given an example: not lane-hogging. Also if people are going to go at 40 in a 60 then they should try to help people get past rather than the opposite. There are many other examples. If we just had easy-to-perform, considerate behaviour like that from everyone then driving would be a pleasure. Simple measures to help other drivers rather than hinder and attempt to control them.

It doesn't take any amount of skill for everyone to do that; I'm not saying that I want everyone to take advanced training, or indeed any training. It's just a case of adjusting some people's attitudes in a few key ways, but as Paul says, "safety" cameras worsen attitudes instead, and contribute to mean-spirited attempts at controlling others (among other things).

Universal "fairly reasonable" driving could be achieved overnight if we could somehow just get the message to everyone that that was how to make the roads much nicer for all users. We're so close yet so far, which is what I find so tantalisingly frustrating. The number of times I want to ask someone "What do you think you're achieving for yourself or anyone else by deliberately doing that?" is far higher than I would like. Some people seem to make it their number one priority to frustrate others, and are thus quite happily cut off their noses to spite their (probably butt ugly) faces. They must be such intolerable busybodies.

mpaton2004, since you think that making people stick to the speed limit is A Good Thing, do you try to control and impede others in the belief that stopping them going any faster than you is in some way "safe"? Do you ever stubbornly sit there at 70 in lane 3 when you should move over? Does your wife? Go on, you can tell us. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 18:24 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Gixxer wrote:
What on earth makes you think I would even consider using a public road as my own little practice strip?


Don't delude yourself.... :roll:

What do you mean by "don't delude yourself"?

You made a statement that I would expect from an AOL user, so back it up with a good reason as to why all private vehicles should be restricted to 100mph.


PS

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about me, especially as you don't know me from Adam!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 18:50 
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bombus wrote:
mpaton2004 wrote:
What would you consider to be "A fairly reasonable way?"

I've already given an example: not lane-hogging. Also if people are going to go at 40 in a 60 then they should try to help people get past rather than the opposite. There are many other examples. If we just had easy-to-perform, considerate behaviour like that from everyone then driving would be a pleasure. Simple measures to help other drivers rather than hinder and attempt to control them.

It doesn't take any amount of skill for everyone to do that; I'm not saying that I want everyone to take advanced training, or indeed any training. It's just a case of adjusting some people's attitudes in a few key ways, but as Paul says, "safety" cameras worsen attitudes instead, and contribute to mean-spirited attempts at controlling others (among other things).

Universal "fairly reasonable" driving could be achieved overnight if we could somehow just get the message to everyone that that was how to make the roads much nicer for all users. We're so close yet so far, which is what I find so tantalisingly frustrating. The number of times I want to ask someone "What do you think you're achieving for yourself or anyone else by deliberately doing that?" is far higher than I would like. Some people seem to make it their number one priority to frustrate others, and are thus quite happily cut off their noses to spite their (probably butt ugly) faces. They must be such intolerable busybodies.

mpaton2004, since you think that making people stick to the speed limit is A Good Thing, do you try to control and impede others in the belief that stopping them going any faster than you is in some way "safe"? Do you ever stubbornly sit there at 70 in lane 3 when you should move over? Does your wife? Go on, you can tell us. ;)


Sounds fairly reasonable. It's all down to driver attitude. Unfortunately, you are never going to get it with youths in Subarus or louts on Sunday rides on their GSXRs. This is one of the reasons I'm pro vehicle speed limiters. If there's no reason to show off, then they won't bother.

To answer your question, I don't sit in L3 at 70. I'm rarely in L3 at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 19:36 
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I saw some scooters racing once (the ones limited to 30 mph) I suspect to see which was the fastest? One was slowly (very) overtaking the other. Imagine what it is like when larger vehicles engage in a similar activity, on say a motorway. Imagine how frustrating it would be to have limited vehicles on roads, with a very small speed differential, slowly overtaking each other.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 19:41 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
All this does is prove beyond reasonable doubt that none of you are interested in road safety, just the fact that you are no longer able to drive at eye-watering speeds on public roads due to the proliferation of safety cameras.


Beg pardon, but I'm having a little difficulty in seeing how you've arrived at that conclusion. I wonder if you would be kind enough to explain.

On the other hand it could be a bit of a wind-up on your part, and I've fallen for it. Is that it?

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 20:33 
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ree.t wrote:
I saw some scooters racing once (the ones limited to 30 mph) I suspect to see which was the fastest? One was slowly (very) overtaking the other. Imagine what it is like when larger vehicles engage in a similar activity, on say a motorway. Imagine how frustrating it would be to have limited vehicles on roads, with a very small speed differential, slowly overtaking each other.


How would limiting vehicles to 100mph affect overtaking?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 22:06 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
How would limiting vehicles to 100mph affect overtaking?

How about when you have two vehicles on an otherwise empty motorway?

How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing on a track day?

How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing for the quarter on a RWYB?


Feel free to let me know if you want any more examples.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:25 
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Quote:
How about when you have two vehicles on an otherwise empty motorway?


The maximum speed limit is 70mph in this country.

Quote:
How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing on a track day?


Nothing to do with public roads.

Quote:
How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing for the quarter on a RWYB?


Nothing to do with public roads.

Anyway, if everyone has the same top-speed, then it's driver quality that wins out, which arguably makes the last two activities more competitive and enjoyable!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:26 
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Constraints, restrictions, tracking and monitoring - when the f*ck do we get the chance to make our own choices? Are we not grown-up enough? Are we not intelligent enough? Or is it simply that the do-gooder, mouth-breathing, p!ss-the-bed liberals who shout loudest in our midst are the ones listened to the most. Rosewater courses through their veins and the concept of pleasure is only fulfilled in the act of dragging everyone else down to their miserable level of existence.

Go ahead mpaton2004, you get you car restricted to 100mph, f*ck it, if you asked nicely, I daresay a few of us could come and limit it to 0mph for you to make it utterly safe and minimise its 'carbon footprint'.

The last time I saw three figures on my speedo on a public road was years ago to make way for a Law car on blues and two's amid a flotilla of bloody middle-lane hogs - when I was eventually able to get into L2, I was rewarded with a thumbs-up from the BiB riding shotgun as they passed me. On the other hand I took the offer to run my Lancia Delta through Killer Kielder - 32km of loose-surface sweat-in-the-eyes pure concentration at speeds from 5 to 90mph, arriving at the end so soaked in adrenalin that I was laughing like an idiot but trying not to cry and never feeling so bloody alive as I did at that moment.

Yeah, you go ahead, mate - enjoy yourself in the way you know best...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:32 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Unfortunately, you are never going to get it with youths in Subarus or louts on Sunday rides on their GSXRs. This is one of the reasons I'm pro vehicle speed limiters. If there's no reason to show off, then they won't bother.


Limiting vehicles to 100 isn't going to stop the numpties who think it's clever to race around doing probably between 25 (around the corners) and 40 (on the straights), but doing so on residential 30mph side streets, with parked cars both sides, tight right-angled corners with limited visibility, even more potholes, patches of eroded surfacing, gaping seams between adjacent concrete slabs where the filler material has long since been worn away etc. etc., where any sane driver would deem doing more than 20 to be a bit risky. Note that at some points during their exhibitions of uber-pratness, they're actually driving WITHIN the legal limit, and at no time do they get anywhere close to exceeding this 100mph limit, so what good would slapping a 100mph limiter on their cars do? Nothing is what.

Having someone glide past me on a free-flowing bit of M-way at 100+ when I'm happily cruising along at a speed a bit less than that, is no big deal if they do so with consideration for me and others on the road at the time. By and large, the majority of drivers who do get past me when I'm not hanging around on the M-ways ARE considerate - I find myself being far more hacked off by the prats who slalom in and out of traffic, carve across the entire carriageway in one fell swoop at (or in some cases, just after) the last moment to reach the off-slip, drive 6 inches off the back end of the vehicle in front, have their fogs/mainbeams blazing away when not required, don't have their fogs/dipped beams blazing away when they ARE required, and generally behave in ways which really do increase the risk of an accident for everyone unfortunate enough to be sharing the same stretch of road as them. I'm not saying every single 100+ driver is safe, but if I could remove just one type of driver from the roads in an attempt to improve safety, they'd be second to last on my list...

And let's assume all those prats dutifully line up at the nearest government-sanctioned fitting centre to get their limiters installed. This, in itself, is quite a bit assumption - some of these prats are already happy to trigger scameras knowing they'll (almost certainly) never be traced, so what makes us think they'll turn into model citizens and submit their vehicles for neutering? But even if they do go along with the plans, what then? Limiting them to 100 just means they won't be able to accelerate as hard as before for as long as before, it won't stop them from being able to accelerate as hard as before for however long it takes to reach 100... Unless the plans for the limiters ALSO include plans to limit acceleration/peak power output (and that would be an even bigger mistake), then the numpty brigade will still be able to race around, trying to out-accelerate each other, out-corner each other, out-brake each other. That they won't be able to do so at speeds above 100 is no big deal, because pretty much most of the time they're not doing that now anyway.


Limiting speed is not the answer. Limiting the ability of idiots to cause mayhem on the roads is. We won't be able to achieve that just by slapping ever more technical hacks into the nations vehicles - all that achieves is ever growing profits for the companies contracted to build/install/operate the systems. What we need is better education, more trafpol so we can stop the idiots at the scene instead of relying on sending them a photo 14 days later to shake them out of their stupidity, and a government (both national and local) that looks at the bigger picture instead of focussing tightly on whichever aspect of road safety is the easiest to monitor and self-finance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:37 
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MGBGT wrote:
Constraints, restrictions, tracking and monitoring - when the f*ck do we get the chance to make our own choices? Are we not grown-up enough? Are we not intelligent enough? Or is it simply that the do-gooder, mouth-breathing, p!ss-the-bed liberals who shout loudest in our midst are the ones listened to the most. Rosewater courses through their veins and the concept of pleasure is only fulfilled in the act of dragging everyone else down to their miserable level of existence.

Go ahead mpaton2004, you get you car restricted to 100mph, f*ck it, if you asked nicely, I daresay a few of us could come and limit it to 0mph for you to make it utterly safe and minimise its 'carbon footprint'.

The last time I saw three figures on my speedo on a public road was years ago to make way for a Law car on blues and two's amid a flotilla of bloody middle-lane hogs - when I was eventually able to get into L2, I was rewarded with a thumbs-up from the BiB riding shotgun as they passed me. On the other hand I took the offer to run my Lancia Delta through Killer Kielder - 32km of loose-surface sweat-in-the-eyes pure concentration at speeds from 5 to 90mph, arriving at the end so soaked in adrenalin that I was laughing like an idiot but trying not to cry and never feeling so bloody alive as I did at that moment.

Yeah, you go ahead, mate - enjoy yourself in the way you know best...


Firstly don't make threats regarding destruction of property, secondly at least you're one of the honest ones!

From that text it's quite clear you're not really interested in road safety, more the fact that councils, MPs, etc are initiating more and more controls that are preventing you from doing what you please (like the majority of people on this site, even though they will never admit to it on a public forum!)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:43 
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Twister wrote:
Limiting vehicles to 100 isn't going to stop the numpties who think it's clever to race....


I think speed limiters coupled with some sort of "voluntary" ISA system could possibly be a good idea. Maybe offenders who regularly abused the "voluntary" aspect of the system could be 'upgraded' to mandatory-ISA, with a device that automatically lights a match under their petrol tank if they try and fiddle with it. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:58 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
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How about when you have two vehicles on an otherwise empty motorway?


The maximum speed limit is 70mph in this country.

So even when conditions permit me to make progress, I should sit back bored to tears because nanny says so?

mpaton2004 wrote:
Quote:
How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing on a track day?


Nothing to do with public roads.

WTF have public roads got to do with it?

YOU stated that all private vehicles should be restricted to 100mph, well it won't be much of a race on track day if you have your way.


mpaton2004 wrote:
Quote:
How about when you have two road legal vehicles competing for the quarter on a RWYB?


Nothing to do with public roads.

As above


mpaton2004 wrote:
Anyway, if everyone has the same top-speed, then it's driver quality that wins out, which arguably makes the last two activities more competitive and enjoyable!

What a complete & utter load of tosh.

Being restricted to 100mph isn't going to get the audience even remotely interested where motorsport in private vehicles is concerned, and it certainly won't float my (or any other riders) boat to run a quarter in 14 seconds when I can already do it in 9.

As for it being more competitive, your performance on the strip is already measured in several areas and the top speed of your vehicle does not affect those measurements in the slightest.

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