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The key research is the well-known Borkenstein study - "The Role of the Drinking Driver in Traffic Accidents" (Bloomington, Indiana University, Department of Police Administration, 1964).

A summary of the findings can be seen in A Fairer and More Effective Solution - the ABD response a few years ago to the government consultation on lowering the drink-drive limit.

In fact the Borkenstein study showed - across a large sample population - a small decrease in accident risk for blood alcohol levels above zero but below 40 mg.


Obviously all studies are done on a population basis and conceal variations between individuals, so as a one-size-fits-all rule this is sound advice, but it does not mean that small quantities of alcohol necessarily will impair driving ability in all or even most individuals.


Ah yes, the wonderful British attitude to alcohol, it's not worth having a drink at all unless you're going to get pissed

A lot of people actually enjoy the occasional drink but feel that two is generally quite enough.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Up to date scientific study, then




Who funded the study, Stella Artois




Nil quantitie will also have the best result




Drink as much as you like, 1, 2 or 10, just do not plan to drive.




I used to like having a couple, but as a proffessional driver it forced me to stop, so i am 'T' total. Not through choice, but by my proffession

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Steve

So, if I take, say, some cough medicine which causes drowsiness when am I allowed to drive? Immediately? After an hour? When the effects have worn off?

I would suggest the final answer is the right one. Now substitute my medication for the cough medicine. I still don't drive while 'affected' but any drugs test will come up positive due to length of time cannabis can be detected. In your world I shouldn't drive, EVER, as the drug is still 'in my system' and will continue to be for as long as the doctor prescribes the drug. I think you are confusing the 'detectability' of the drug with its effect - these are not the same!

You are quite right Mrs M. The effects cause the impairment. If police detect the impairment based on their roadside tests - then they will test for further prosecutable evidence. This can be argued out by a clever lawyer in court in the case of prescribed medicines and levels of the toxins in the blood. Apart form the obvious illegals - think the legal precedents will be worth watching in the case of prescribed medicines in particulars - as doseage is very much controlled by medics!

The clues are in the instruction leaflet. If the doctor or the accompanying blurb says "may cause drowsiness" and "do not operate machinery if feeling drowsy" - then you do not drive a car in that state. Effects interact with another drug - so follow your doctor's and pharmacist's advice. Usually drowsiness factor in many of the over the counter cold remedies wears off very quickly. I would take the medicine about 90 minutes or so before you intend to drive. Have a little snooze whilst in the drowzy state instead of fighting it. Effect wears off quicker - or perhaps that is my own personal system. (Still find chicken broth, bed and my wife are much better cure! )

As for cannabis in the system - bloke like Paul McCartney has been taking it for so long - his body would be impaire without it. High tolerance - and if police pulled such a case - he would pass the roadside checks. Occasional users would display all the classic symptoms and thus be nicked.

Drinking? You already know my views on that - zero as one drink can lead to two and the into four. before you know it - you are over the limit. Because as Peter E sums up: SOME Brits think they have to get completely rat@rsed before they consider they enjoyed themselves. Nothing worng with the odd drink so long as it is taken with food and not just before you go to bed! Just hear on news - 9% tested positive over Christmas and senior police "want the limit reduced by a thrid to combat this problem" (Exactly what I just heard on 1 am news on Radio 2)

By all means take your Lemsips or Venos (without whisky ) about half hour before bed. Effects of the drug work best when you relax and your system absorbs and excretes it as you sleep. If you must have a wee dram to kill the cold - do this well before 11 pm. But don't follow this up with Lemsips etc. One or the other!

Please point to any more recent studies that show different results. The potency of alcohol hasn't changed over the years.


A beverage not widely available in Indiana in 1964


Yes, but small quantitie may have the same result.


Fair enough, but the above attitude is commonplace in our society and tends to discourage responsible, moderate drinking.


Unless you have a drink problem, I really can't see why having a couple of drinks in the evening causes any legal or practical problem with driving the following day. Most professional drivers aren't teetotal, you know.

You seem to be confusing your own prejudices with effective road safety policy. An effective policy will only prohibit any behaviour - drink, drugs, mobile phones, whatever - where it can be proved to have a significant effect on safety.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Define moderate, is it to get merry



Drink & drugs have a significant effect on our reaction times, it is our reaction to hazards that plays the most significant effect to all accidents.

By having a minimal allowance it causes confusion

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Steve

This point wasn't made in the context of driving, but I would have thought the difference was rather obvious. Excessive drinking causes short-term trouble and/or long-term health problems. Moderate drinking doesn't. There's also plenty of evidence that consumption of moderate quantities of alcohol is beneficial to health, particularly for over-40s.


The effect depends upon the concentration. Low levels of alcohol have no effect on accident risk. If you seek to prohibit even low levels of alcohol when driving, that is an anti-alcohol policy, not a road safety policy.


Whereas a zero allowance is physiologically impossible and would also cause gross injustice by criminalising commonplace behaviour which involves no additional accident risk.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Report on BBC News today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4498419.stm

Cannabis increases car-crash risk

Heavy cannabis users are 10 times more likely to be injured, or to injure others, in car accidents, researchers have found...

However, like many studies, it doesn't necessarily prove causation. Heavy cannabis users are likely to take a less responsible attitude to many things, even if not impaired by the drug at the time.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It would be very enlightening, to see if heavy smoking was connected to accident rates too.
I suspect the link has a greater weight attached to it because cannabis is illegal, than might otherwise be the case.
Anybody any data on this?

I have long wondered whether people do drugs (including smoking) BECAUSE they lack something in their lives, or whether the something lacking is triggered by the drug use! My own experience is I DONT wnat to smoke, OR do drugs, where as people I know who take drugs smoke as well, leading me to think the two are linked.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Isn't that the same thing as saying that criminals speed, therefore all who speed are criminals?
You'll find that many people on this forum are also smokers, are also safe drivers, and do not lack anything in their lives - excepting for a bit of spare cash.

Cheers
Peter

First of all - drugs - why does the rail industry implement a drugs and alcohol policy.
It says basically the limit is no drugs either prescription or illegal that will affect your judgement.The onus is on the employee - as it should be on the driver.

Pete317 says -"Whereas a zero allowance( of alcohol, my addition) is physiologically impossible and would also cause gross injustice by criminalising commonplace behaviour which involves no additional accident risk." - achieved to a great extent in the rail industry.



Could be a link - relationship between attention span on thinking about/wanting/lighting up cigarette and time given to driving.

Pete317 says
Isn't that the same thing as saying that criminals speed, therefore all who speed are criminals?
You'll find that many people on this forum are also smokers, are also safe drivers, and do not lack anything in their lives - excepting for a bit of spare cash.

Pete - i agree, but i gave it up, im not preaching BUT the seconds lighting up ( from over 20 yrs smoking and driving) detract from our reading of the road.
Using a mobile - ilegal.( attention taken away from road)
NEEDING A FAG - not illegal , but how does it affect driving ability??
Lighting a fag - not illegal, but for some seconds your eyes are not on road.At 30 mph you travel 44 feet every second.(2 secs = 88 feet,:75 ft = dry stopping distance as per highway code! ).

Like I said, i smoked and drove for over 20 years, but we should not preach ( or judge) those that do.
A carefull driver will not light up untill safe , what if he is a heavy smoker that can't wait?
We need to stop and look at those things that cause accidents., like time eyes off road, and brain wanting fag.
I say, ( and i think every BIB ON HERE ) will agree - alcohol - one sip is too much.

Ernest - most start with the fag or smoke cannabis - this where link comes from. Many cannabis users then feel dissatisfied as initail buzz wanes and they try something new. This is the case more often than not - but we are generailising to gretater extent.

There are always exceptions to norm - which explains why some have adverse reaction to a routine prescription drug designed to fit the norm.

Human body is very complex and out bio-chemistry is peculiar in that our body will manufacture its own defences accordingly - which will then inter-act with medicines and drugs. I study all this for a living.... body will react to a virus and even defend itself. That's how we develop the vaccines and one of reasons why it only alleviates new strain but does not make yuou 100% immune... that's in simple talk by the way - this is motoring forum and not NHS direct

But these drugs alter the fine balance - creates the addiction and the downhill spiral. Perhaps we need to find the right outlets to make the taking of them appear too unattractive and uncool. I can trace how long a drug has probably been in a body - but could bot prove in case of crash when drug was actually taken and it he effects still impaired - research is going on to perfect the procedure and pin-point actual point of taking drug - which should make IG et al's life a bit easier - since it opens out level of impairment a bit more precisely - but once we have the technique - we then have to make it bomb proof if used as acceptable evidence. It will come one day though. My profession learns something new each day...

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Sorry Pete, but I was'nt implying all smokers did drugs, but asking whether a majority of drug users smoke, (Cannabis use especially).
I regard nicotine as a drug - after all it IS addictive, and this might influence users driving even if not to the extent of illegal drug use in the study quoted. It need not mean a drivers safety was impaired if their daily fix was sated, but might cause a problem to a heavy smoker, denied a smoke on a journey due to lack of opportunity.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Mad Moggie, I did some searching on caffeine over a comment regarding my son and some of his contemporaries, and some of the information was enlightening to say the least.
I am not scared for the reasons you mention - all of us are unique, just like everybody else! However, I did see coffee in a new light, and have since treated my receptors with respect!!!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have known motor insurance companies offer reduced premiums to non-smokers but it coul dbe down to the distraction of driving and smoking.

Wasn't there a move to ban cigarette lighters from new cars as well?

Just goes to prove that drugs *don't* necessarily make you cool no matter how much you do or for how long!



I love the way that the initial headline leaves off the preceding 'Heavy', thus implying to the casual reader that any usage impairs driving.



I've long held the belief that the true 'gateway' drug is tobacco (or nicotine, to be more precise). I believe that cannabis has been unfairly tarred with the 'gateway drug' brush because most people in this country who smoke it mix it with tobacco first. I came to this conclusion because thinking about it, everyone I know who ended up with a less socially acceptable addiction always ended up going back to the fags, and it wasn't until they decided to get the fags under control that the other compulsions faded.

As for people getting aggressive on cannabis, I guess it depends on the type and potency. A lot of the hydroponic stuff (you know, the XR3i-turbo-nutter-bastard skunk) has been bred for high THC content. Now, there are various different cannabinoids in the cannabis plant (there's even some in chocolate, believe it or not - though stereotypically the chocolate type is more effective on the fairer sex ) of which THC is the strongest stimulant and is therefore considered to be the 'active' component of the plant. However the other cannabinoids have an effect too, and I believe that singling out and breeding for the stimulant effect is what causes the paranoia and mood swings. In scientific terms this isn't much more than a wild-arsed guess, but I'd love to see a study done, because it seems to hold true to my experience.

J.