Safe Speed Forums

plenty of times I've been in l2 and there is traffic ahead in l1 - within 20 to 30 second arrival time on major motorways.

you'll still get people giving you a flash - as if to say "oi out of the way!"

I know what your saying - what I'm describing is not mlm per se - but a lot of captain flash's reckon their judgement is better than yours - and treat you like a mlm anyways.

my earlier comments about it being fun having them behind you fuming is unavoidable - as often your faced with no other option than stay at posted speed limit to get passed 65mph vehicles in l1. If I'm out in the l2 or l3 - and there is no where for me to disappear to - then I dont expect captain flash to harass me out of the way... This unfortunately is the reality of whats being discussed.

The cases where you find someone doing 50 in l3 as like hens teeth. I've never encountered this myself but have experienced plenty of impatient/illegally speeding drivers. If we're advocating ignoring this breach in favour of pulling over someone driving at the limit in l2 - then the forum is in danger of making itself null and void...

I generally do about 80 (indicated) on Motorways and I frequently use L1 in the day!

There's a general rule that if you can expect to be in a lane to your left for more than ten seconds, pull in to it. Simple!

Whilst I have no doubt that there are some self-important prats out there on the roads I am sure that most of the people who overtake me on the motorway do not carry any sense of superior importance about themselves. That you choose to couch your interpretation of their actions in such terms actually tells us a lot more about you and your attitudes towards other road users than it does about them.
One of these days you will encounter some Billy Big Balls who not only thinks they really are more important that you, but will endeavour to prove it to you.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

It is a same to see the debate has not evolved, nor do I think it will.


Peegee if you get flashed so much you must:

A) Be doing something wrong.
B) Miss understanding what people are flashing you for, it might be courtesy.

I travelled from Tamworth to bath on Monday M42 (very slow moving) so M6 – M5 -M4 from ~9am-11am. I did not get flashed, and found I could cruise in L1 for several minutes. My GPS read (78 mph). I came back M4-M5-M42 at ~11-13 the following day similar story.

If you want to stick to the limit that is fine, drive at whatever speed you like (within reason). But why sit in Lane 2 when Lane 1 is free?

You are reducing the capacity of the motorway; you must see that is problem. Accept people are going to want to drive at speeds above the legal limit, leave them to the police they will decide who to punish. You can just get on with driving

Point to note: A motorway patrol (police) was travelling at 70 mph, however it seemed happy to sit in lane 1 (or which ever lane was appropriate). It also had no problem with me overtaking him at ~75 mph. If the police have no problem with it all why do you?

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Subsequent point - I have NEVER seen a marked patrol car hogging lanes 2 or 3.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Eh? Their training says stay in L3 at all times when there's need fo speed. They even train 'L3 > exit' in one smooth move. I'd be pretty surprised if you saw a marked car travelling on blue lights in anything other than L3.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I should have qualified it with "without blue lights on".

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

No peegee, thats not whats being discussed, and no matter how much you try to twist it, it won't be.

If you have a 30 second gap between you and traffic ahead in L1, and someone wanting to pass you, that is ample time to move left, allow them past, and move back out without altering your speed, or impacting any of your safety margins. To maintain 2 second gaps between both the traffic ahead and the person who will have passed you, a minimum of 26 seconds exists for them to pass you. I have never known a (non-lorry) motorway overtake to take as long as this. Its half a mile!

Why not try altering your paradigm; don't assume that the person wanting to pass you wants to harrass you out of the way, instead see them as a fellow road user wanting to make safe progress, merely at a different speed to you. If they flash you, don't imagine them all enraged in their car, but suppose that they are pointing out to you that you may have overlooked the opportunity for you to move to L1 without inconveniencing yourself and let everyone proceed on their way in the manner of their choosing without stress or conflict.

I'm sorry that you think advocating considerate driving would make the forum null and void, perhaps you have misunderstood what the forum is about? I'm also regretful that you, and others, seem to think that, just because you perceive that others are breaking the law, you do not have to show consideration on the roads.

Something that has occurred to me, in a bit of an amateur psychologist moment, is that perhaps those who feel justified in obstructing other drivers do so because they feel restricted themselves. Perhaps if the limit was higher, they would happily drive faster, but since they are being restricted to a limit lower than they themselves might choose, and are adhering to it for whatever reason, they feel resentment towards those who do shake off this restriction, and attempt to reimpose it upon them forcefully. It does raise the question, to those here who may or may not be MLMs, as to whether, were the limit to be raised to 80mph, they would continue to drive at 70mph? If they would, then would they still feel justified in hogging L2?

Fair enough.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

In that case, don't they normally travel in L1 at 56.0mph?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

With a massive queue of people behind them too scared to overtake incase they get pulled for speeding

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Are we not talking about manners here? I once looked up a definition of manners and it said:

'Manners ease the stress of communal living, and mannerly behaviour recognises the right of others to share communal space.'

Isn't that much of what driving is really about?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Thats exactly what its about mate, though expect the MLMs to come back with "its not good manners to speed past me".

The fact remains, in any society, if most people have a problem with what one person is doing, then that is the person with the problem. These people are purposefully placing themselves in conflict situations. Whatever their blather about 'I'm doing the speed limit, and as long as I am I can drive anywhere on the roads in any manner I see fit', they are not obeying the conventions of the road, and this is indeed bad manners.

Not too long ago speed limits were based on the 85th percentile, meaning that the speed limit was the speed that 85% of the people will be travelling at or below that speed limit and 15% will be travelling at over that speed limit. Unfortunately most speed limits are now set at arbitrary limits which have nothing to do with either the 85th percentile or the average speed. If a law is bad then the populace will ignore it and as so many speed limits are set incorrectly the majority of people ignore them which also applies to motorways.



Please feel free to uphold the law, meaning that you do not break any laws and act in a lawful manner, do not try and enforce the law as you are not qualified to do so.



I would like to know the source for your figures that prove many people are killed and seriously injured on the roads each year due to speeding alone. I'm pretty sure that the figures that you provide, if you can, would be found to be those from people exceeding the speed for the conditions of the road.



I wish they wouldn't. I wish that people would drive with full awareness of the hazards and vehicles around them and accord them, vehicles, the courtesy and respect the expect to receive and the quote below shows that you are a highly inconsiderate and aggressive driver.



You seem to have been convinced by the government, media and the camera partnerships to believe that speeding kills but, unfortunately as already stated, it doesn't. Inappropriate speed for the conditions of the road along with poor hazard awareness and driving are the things that get people killed.

No one (or would you prefer no-one?) on this forum is going to convince you that you are wrong; neither are you going to convince anyone on this forum that you are right. If you feel that you are right I suggest that you try your arguments on other motoring fora such as PetrolHeads and do feel free to come back and post up links of you successfully convincing a large proportion of the posters on there won't you?

Moderators, please lock either this thread or http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9045 as the same arguments seem to be proliferating in both.

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Prepare to be Judged

As we know this "skill" called hazard perception is missing even in some so called experienced drivers.

Also peoples ability to drive to conditions are not the same and hence flawed.

Therefore the mean situation is to state a limit at which the majority of drivers can drive safely and effectively.

Unfortunately this thread keeps twist what people are saying - and missing the related safety issues - such as approaching cars ahead at well above and beyond the current speed limits.

It is then up to the driver behind approaching at speed to curtail his exploits and ensure he does not tail gate the person till such times as the road ahead allows one to pull out of l2 or l3.

Thats the bottomline issue I'm concerned about here - we blame the mlm - however in 99% of cases you'll find the perciever is the speeder and being hindered by the law abiding person - and nothing more.

The thing is, peegee, I can sympathise with what you say above, though numerical speed is a little overemphasised, but I still can't see anything there that justifies deliberately staying in L2 when L1 is a viable option.

But speeding or the lack of speeding is irrelevant here - if Lane 1 is clear for a fair distance ahead, you should move into it, if it isn't, and you are overtaking or gaining on traffic already in Lane 1, then there's no need to move over. Simple as that.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Agreed. I've locked the other; activity in there seems to have tapered off.

Oh yes. there is already a known and accepted method known as the 85th percentile rule. You should read up on it.


But ... but ... the other driver – speeding or not – doesn’t have to be held up by the law biding person, so why do it?


There is no reason for lane-hogging, it is socially unacceptable because it causes unnecessary congestion - so why do it?

I can usually manage to achieve this impossible feat several times on my drive to and from work each day - M40 J1 to J4 in the morning rush hour, and the reverse in the evening rush hour.




Leaving aside whether or not this 5s figure is actually correct, the length of this gap is determined by the speed of the HGV, because it's the HGV that needs to stop in that gap, not by the speed of the vehicle that's pulled in front of the HGV (unless that vehicle is travelling slower than the HGV...). Quoting figures for 60 and 70 is an irrelevant muddying of the waters.




20-30s is a long time to be staying out when there's an empty lane to your left - 10s is the rule of thumb most half-decent drivers seem to work to.




Reality? On which roads? Not the ones I (nor, it seems, several others here) frequent...

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Chris